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Old 07-23-2016, 09:58 AM
 
Location: Maine
19,194 posts, read 22,898,388 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocpaul20 View Post
A "fact of life" is a phrase in English and is not generally a fact in the normal way you are using the word. You know that. It is a generally accepted truth and does not have to be proved to you or anyone else.Now let us move on.
You take the good. You take the bad. You take 'em both, and then you have ...
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Old 07-24-2016, 07:46 AM
 
Location: Falls Church, Fairfax County
5,168 posts, read 3,616,066 times
Reputation: 6321
Quote:
Originally Posted by ocpaul20 View Post
A "fact of life" is a phrase in English and is not generally a fact in the normal way you are using the word. You know that. It is a generally accepted truth and does not have to be proved to you or anyone else.Now let us move on.
So you are saying that it is not a fact that there are some very weird and strange phenomena affecting people and always has been? That these have reasonable explanations?
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Old 07-24-2016, 03:35 PM
 
Location: 39 20' 59"N / 75 30' 53"W
16,081 posts, read 25,605,915 times
Reputation: 18078
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Guard View Post
So you are saying that it is not a fact that there are some very weird and strange phenomena affecting people and always has been? That these have reasonable explanations?
Curious, what reasonable explanation and strange phenomena; my questions specific to the original post and topic?
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Old 07-24-2016, 06:23 PM
 
Location: Falls Church, Fairfax County
5,168 posts, read 3,616,066 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by virgode View Post
Curious, what reasonable explanation and strange phenomena; my questions specific to the original post and topic?
I was responding to a poster that said:

"Fearmongering or not, it is a fact of life that there are some very weird and strange phenomena affecting people and always have been."

If there are weird and strange phenomenon and they are a fact of life then there should be an explanation for them.

Like we may not be sure where life comes from but that does not stop us from looking. We know there is life, we know how at least some life is reproduced, we know that we have not identified every living organism and we know we do not understand every organism that we have identified completely.
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Old 07-24-2016, 07:53 PM
 
Location: 39 20' 59"N / 75 30' 53"W
16,081 posts, read 25,605,915 times
Reputation: 18078
Y
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Guard View Post
I was responding to a poster that said:

"Fearmongering or not, it is a fact of life that there are some very weird and strange phenomena affecting people and always have been."

If there are weird and strange phenomenon and they are a fact of life then there should be an explanation for them.

Like we may not be sure where life comes from but that does not stop us from looking. We know there is life, we know how at least some life is reproduced, we know that we have not identified every living organism and we know we do not understand every organism that we have identified completely.
From a scientific perspective; topics gotten deep. As far as 'evil' and demonic possesion, I dont throw that term around lightly; other than mental illness, it is a reasonable explanation. Just my opinion and we usually disagree...but thanks for the response.
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Old 07-25-2016, 07:09 AM
 
Location: Falls Church, Fairfax County
5,168 posts, read 3,616,066 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by virgode View Post
From a scientific perspective; topics gotten deep. As far as 'evil' and demonic possesion, I dont throw that term around lightly; other than mental illness, it is a reasonable explanation. Just my opinion and we usually disagree...but thanks for the response.
The thing about demonic possession is I am not sure why it would be so hard to reproduce or to prove.

From my limited understanding I do not see demons or evil spirits as entities that would follow rules and have anything but contempt for humans. It also seems that they attain amusement by causing fear in people so keeping it a secret seems contrary to what I believe the goals to be. Sort of like having a terrorist attack that nobody knows about.
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Old 07-25-2016, 07:20 AM
 
Location: Maine
19,194 posts, read 22,898,388 times
Reputation: 23477
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Guard View Post
The thing about demonic possession is I am not sure why it would be so hard to reproduce or to prove.
Because it is very rare.

And because, quite frankly, materialists are going to see what they want to see, as are supernaturalists. It's very hard to get an honest evaluation of evidence, free of bias.

I don't remember the precise college where the following took place, but I read a year or two ago about a professor who wanted to prove this point. He knew that in his class he had several members of the "woo woo" crowd who would see supernatural explanations for everything, as well as die-hard materialists who denied anything supernatural. So he found a way to prove this.

He rigged his front podium with some sort of electro-magnet that would allow an appartus he set up on top of the podium to "float" a foot or so above the surface whenever he flipped a switch and ran an electric current through the magnet. Then in class he lowered the lights and asked everyone to "think positive thoughts of power" toward him --- at which time he turned on the current and the stuff on his podium started to "float." It really did levitate.

Now the woo-woo crowd loved it. Some even said they saw a "ghostly presence" or a "halo of ectoplasm" around the podium.

The materialists denied it had floated at all. Absolutely denied it. Right before their eyes it floated, but they would admit no such thing because it conflicted with their preconceived bias.

Now, this was a rigged game, to be sure. But there is no denying the fact that the stuff on the podium floated. And both sides interpreted it through their own bias. But the materialists came off no better than the woo-wooers. The woo-woo crowd invented all sorts of erroneous details to add to the evidence. But it was the materialists who refused the evidence altogether.

And I think in cases of possession you are going to run in to a lot of the same thing from some people. Not all. The guy who researched THE RITE went in as a total skeptic and came out believing in possession after what he observed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Guard View Post
From my limited understanding I do not see demons or evil spirits as entities that would follow rules and have anything but contempt for humans.
Demons may have contempt for rules, but that doesn't mean they aren't bound by them.

Myself, I often lament having to obey the Law of Gravity. But I have yet found a way to break it whenever I want. I am gravity's prisoner as much as anyone else.

I suspect a similar concept is at work with possession. Demons do as much as they can get away with, but they are not omnipotent. If they were, exorcism wouldn't work.
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Old 07-25-2016, 07:39 AM
 
Location: Falls Church, Fairfax County
5,168 posts, read 3,616,066 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S. View Post
Because it is very rare.
There are lots of things that are very rare, that does not make them impossible to study.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S. View Post
And because, quite frankly, materialists are going to see what they want to see, as are supernaturalists. It's very hard to get an honest evaluation of evidence, free of bias.
So maybe "supernaturalists" may be seeing what they wish? You know there are some pretty hard people out there that would not be scared of a possessed person at all and I am pretty sure at some points if demons existed they would have crossed the wrong person who had an interest in this and would study it and documented it by now. Possibly even harnessed demons for their own use, like a free power source or something.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S. View Post
I don't remember the precise college where the following took place,
Shocking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S. View Post
but I read a year or two ago about a professor who wanted to prove this point. He knew that in his class he had several members of the "woo woo" crowd who would see supernatural explanations for everything, as well as die-hard materialists who denied anything supernatural. So he found a way to prove this.

He rigged his front podium with some sort of electro-magnet that would allow an appartus he set up on top of the podium to "float" a foot or so above the surface whenever he flipped a switch and ran an electric current through the magnet. Then in class he lowered the lights and asked everyone to "think positive thoughts of power" toward him --- at which time he turned on the current and the stuff on his podium started to "float." It really did levitate.

Now the woo-woo crowd loved it. Some even said they saw a "ghostly presence" or a "halo of ectoplasm" around the podium.

The materialists denied it had floated at all. Absolutely denied it. Right before their eyes it floated, but they would admit no such thing because it conflicted with their preconceived bias.
OH yes, I see, a story, that you do not know specifics of makes non-believers look stupid. I am shocked! Yet it is so significant you cannot even remember where it happened.....

But you believe it did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S. View Post
Now, this was a rigged game, to be sure. But there is no denying the fact that the stuff on the podium floated.
Really? There is no denying? You cannot even remember specifics about this and you cannot deny that it ever happened or if it did that it did not happen exactly in the way you stated?

You know because even if a person is not a believer they are a little used to professors using tricks and demonstrations to make a point and I am sure almost every one of the people in the audience had seen a magician at least once in their life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S. View Post
And both sides interpreted it through their own bias.
Both sides? Really? Like there are not more than two sides? Like the people who believe, the people who do not believe, the people who do not care, the people who just broke up and thought their world was ending, the hungry, the sleeping, the hungover......
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S. View Post
But the materialists came off no better than the woo-wooers. The woo-woo crowd invented all sorts of erroneous details to add to the evidence. But it was the materialists who refused the evidence altogether.
And all of them together who cannot remember the professors name, the university or the location.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S. View Post
And I think in cases of possession you are going to run in to a lot of the same thing from some people. Not all. The guy who researched THE RITE went in as a total skeptic and came out believing in possession after what he observed.
I am shocked that someone who was making a profit from selling belief would say they believe.

They believed so much that they did not abandon the book, they actually sold the movie rights as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S. View Post
Demons may have contempt for rules, but that doesn't mean they aren't bound by them.
It does not mean they are though, or that the rules even exist. I mean God is omnipotent. So it would be easy for him to stop this all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S. View Post
Myself, I often lament having to obey the Law of Gravity. But I have yet found a way to break it whenever I want. I am gravity's prisoner as much as anyone else.
We can prove that gravity exists and we study it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S. View Post
I suspect a similar concept is at work with possession. Demons do as much as they can get away with, but they are not omnipotent. If they were, exorcism wouldn't work.
We do not know that they exist let alone that exorcism's work.
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Old 07-25-2016, 09:25 AM
 
Location: Maine
19,194 posts, read 22,898,388 times
Reputation: 23477
Thanks for proving my point for me, Old Guard.

Here you go: Can Skepticism Blind You to the Truth?

Enjoy.
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Old 07-25-2016, 10:06 AM
 
Location: Falls Church, Fairfax County
5,168 posts, read 3,616,066 times
Reputation: 6321
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S. View Post
Thanks for proving my point for me, Old Guard.

Here you go: Can Skepticism Blind You to the Truth?

Enjoy.
This sounds nothing like what you stated earlier. As a matter of fact it seems to indicate that at least several volunteers were involved but only mentions the reactions of two.

I did not see where it mentioned clearly what the beliefs of either of the two were.

How do we know that either were believers or skeptics? How do we know that the person who said nothing happened actually was able to discern anything happened based on their perspective?

Then we have this from the article you linked:

"Perhaps the story should be taken with a grain of salt. Ellison was, in addition to his academic accomplishments, a dedicated paranormal researcher who believed the science was too narrow to account for things like out-of-body experiences. This story was from one of his books."

So it seems like he may have had some financial concerns? As a matter of fact a lot of the unexplained seems to be able to be explained when you follow the money trail...
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