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Old 06-28-2017, 05:20 AM
 
Location: UK
6,908 posts, read 6,819,931 times
Reputation: 6513

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Wow. You got me there. Well said, sir. Well said.
Sorry Bill, you caught me in defensive mode.

Quote:
k...let's drill down on points one and seven. You're suggesting that ETs...and the US military have spacecraft that are capable of faster than light/extradimensional travel, right? Based on what? Speculation? Or have people who've claimed to be kidnapped by aliens actually go into detail about ETs propulsion systems?

See, I get that there are a lot of people who believe they've been abducted. And that, based on those stories, there are other people who believe that ETs are abducting people. Where you lose me is when you fill in the gaps with what's convenient. Like "bending space-time" or "appear instantly."
These are my beliefs, they are not provable. Thats why I said they were my beliefs. Yes, I believe, from what I have read in various places, this is so. As some circumstancial evidence people have said they see craft going through the water at speed, which suggests to me they have advanced space/time propulsion. They do not report a huge wake or surges in the water. The UFOs have been reported winking out. That is disappearing instantly. Right?
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Old 06-28-2017, 05:27 AM
 
Location: Falls Church, Fairfax County
5,162 posts, read 4,464,096 times
Reputation: 6336
Quote:
Originally Posted by ocpaul20 View Post
You forget where you are. This is the Paranormal forum. How do you propose that we give you proof of the paranormal or of aliens, or UFOs?
Just because it is a paranormal and unexplained forum does not mean that there is no discussion of evidence. On the contrary I believe that there should be more evidence, scientific and fact based discussion because I am actually interested in the truth.

If there are aliens I would like to know about it. If someone says that the military "may" have these kinds of planes so we must have cheap, unlimited, power sources I am like "OH hey, that is interesting, tell me about the planes because cheap, unlimited, power is a game changer!". Then the person says well 5,000 people reported seeing UFO go from a complete hovering stop to a bazillion miles an hour I get disappointed, not because I think the people are lying, I just think that 5,000 people fall well below minimum error threshold and because human resources are limited.

I kind of want the scientific method to be applied. Something like this:


  • Formulate question(s)
  • Collect data
  • Test hypotheses
  • Present conclusion
  • Peer review
When someone presents a conclusion, calls me stupid and does not offer evidence or make a good faith effort to answer questions I revert to my financial thinking and assume they are a fraud. I am not going to invest in a cheap, unlimited, power source if person wants me to but will not answer questions or provide data and hopefully a working prototype.



I would not expect people to invest in my self tying tennis shoes if I told them they were stupid and that they do not need to worry about if it is possible because Wonder Woman can make an invisible jet so I am sure that scientists can make a self tying shoe, just give me the money.


I usually browse this forum and do not comment on a lot because I feel I do not believe and it is a belief system based belief. I have no problem with that. But is someone tells me I am stupid for not believing in their belief system I will usually respond.

I want the truth thus I want evidence. I assume that anyone else that wants the truth also wants evidence or they truly do not believe.
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Old 06-28-2017, 05:32 AM
 
Location: Falls Church, Fairfax County
5,162 posts, read 4,464,096 times
Reputation: 6336
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill790 View Post
Wow. You got me there. Well said, sir. Well said.

--
You can't argue with facts like that Bill790. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Old 06-28-2017, 05:41 AM
 
Location: Falls Church, Fairfax County
5,162 posts, read 4,464,096 times
Reputation: 6336
Quote:
Originally Posted by ocpaul20 View Post
Sorry Bill, you caught me in defensive mode.

These are my beliefs, they are not provable. Thats why I said they were my beliefs. Yes, I believe, from what I have read in various places, this is so. As some circumstancial evidence people have said they see craft going through the water at speed, which suggests to me they have advanced space/time propulsion. They do not report a huge wake or surges in the water. The UFOs have been reported winking out. That is disappearing instantly. Right?
Just because something is reported does not mean it is true.

The bolded part below shows what people have a problem with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ocpaul20 View Post
I thought it was about time we had another discussion about abductions since they are possibly the most long-term dangerous thing to our society at the moment. Of course, if you deny there is such a thing going on, then I wish you well in your happy and blissful ignorance.
This goes way beyond "this is my belief" and enters this is fact and if you do not believe it you are ignorant.
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Old 06-28-2017, 07:58 AM
Yac
 
6,049 posts, read 7,703,405 times
Quote:
Originally Posted by ocpaul20 View Post
You mean as a moderator?

Some people will get "offended" at anything, it is a manipulation technique.

You forget where you are. This is the Paranormal forum. How do you propose that we give you proof of the paranormal or of aliens, or UFOs?
I step in as a mod but also as a member.
Avoiding answering questions is also a manipulation technique.
We talked about this before, if we didn't I'd assume you are trolling.
Paranormal doesn't mean the discussion should be devoid of any logic. Paranormal and unexplained doesn't mean fantasy - it means, by definition, things we don't yet understand or that are hidden, but not devoid of logic.
If you came here to discuss what you saw, I wouldn't have any issue. Instead, you insist you're preaching the truth, you treat your unsubstantiated opinions as facts and then attack those that point to the lack of logic in your arguments, instead of explaining to them what they are missing.
Changing the focus of the topic when it gets uncomfortable is also a manipulation technique. Making a fuss and playing the victim is also a manipulation technique.
This is the paranormal forum, I don't think anyone here expects you to use the scientific method (or at least, shouldn't have ) to prove your points - but the moment these points aren't "I saw a ghost and he told me that (..)" but venture in the area where these "facts" can actually be checked and verified (and you're refusing to do that, mocking and changing the topic instead).. you're moving out of the paranormal and unexplained mysteries area. To an area where we don't "have" to believe you, as we have some ways of checking it. We can question what you write.. right ? Or is it forbidden ?
Yac.
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Old 06-28-2017, 06:11 PM
 
331 posts, read 312,823 times
Reputation: 935
Quote:
Originally Posted by ocpaul20 View Post
Really? What great confidence do you have that your opinions are correct? and why should we take your word for it - rather than anyone elses? This sounds like bluster to me.

You shouldn't "take my word for it." You should merely consider my opinions as those of someone who has been deeply involved in ufology for more than 50 years and is thoroughly familiar with ALL - and I do mean ALL - of the evidence and theories. Within mainstream ufology (an oxymoron, I realize), I don't know of anyone who takes Jacobs any more seriously than they take Richard Hoagland and his goofy "crystalline structures" on the moon (which only he and his little cult, alas, can see).

Face it, alien abduction is over and done insofar as "aliens actually abducting humans to produce hybrids" is concerned. Whatever the UFO phenomenon actually is, it's something far weirder than that anthropocentric explanation. The late Budd Hopkins, whose methods have now been thoroughly discredited along with Jacobs', lost me when he had to resort to the "invisibility" ploy in Witnessed, which is now almost 25 years ago. The reason we never see these abductions, you see, despite virtually the entire planet being blanketed by some form of photographic technology 24 hours a day, is that the aliens have mastered invisibility. Oh, uh-huh.

One of the problems with a field like ufology is that people become wedded to their pet theories and cling to them with religious-like zeal way past the point where the evidence and rational inferences from the evidence cease to support them. The hybrid thing goes back to the earliest days of the abduction phenomenon, but it's never moved off the dime and is no longer seriously considered by anyone outside the Jacobs cult. You seem to be a Hybrid Fundamentalist, so I'll let it go.

Yes, Jacobs was a history professor at Temple University (as I recall). Just those credentials sucked me in for a while. He now exemplifies one of the axioms by which I have learned to guide my life: "Just because someone seems to function in an entirely sane and credible manner in one area of his life, you cannot assume that he is not nutty as the proverbial fruitcake in some other area of his life." You would be surprised how helpful it can be to keep this in mind.
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Old 06-28-2017, 06:57 PM
 
Location: UK
6,908 posts, read 6,819,931 times
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I have explained about my "ignorance is bliss" statement. what more can I do?

Maybe it is a cultural misunderstanding and what I understand from "ignorance is bliss" does not translate into other cultures. Where have I said ANY of you are stupid? It is just not my way to say that about anyone.

I will repeat what I explained. Ignorance is NOT the same as ingorant. In this context it means a not knowing NOT a being stupid. Now having explained myself, I hope you understand the meaning and context of the comment.

I have not changed the focus of the topic. The topic is still about the book and author and the idea he puts forward in that book that we are being taken over by aliens by a hybrid breeding program.

You are focusing on me and my opinions but the thread is not about that, it is about the book, author, and what he says is going on.
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Old 06-28-2017, 07:31 PM
 
Location: UK
6,908 posts, read 6,819,931 times
Reputation: 6513
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yac
Paranormal doesn't mean the discussion should be devoid of any logic. Paranormal and unexplained doesn't mean fantasy - it means, by definition, things we don't yet understand or that are hidden, but not devoid of logic.
How can things we dont understand be subject to logic? Logic assumes you know how things will go and what is likely to happen next. Logic follows a series of events and is not a seemingly random series of events. If you have an event which is unexplained, how can you apply any logic to it? Although, of course you can make up your own logic which may or may not have any bearing on how the event will pan out.

We hve to realise that when far superior technology is under the miscroscope, anything could happen and often things are not as we are used to. For example if craft can pop in and out of our dimension it means they will appear and disappear immediately. You cannot apply logic to that phenomenon.

In this case of unexplained phenomena, we only like to use logic because it gives us a 'framework' under which to study something totally unexplained. However, if the technology is far far advanced then there is no point having a hypothesis or idea how it works because of our limited understanding from our 2017 perspective. Rather like ants trying to understand a motor car. There may be far more of the car which we cannot see or experience from our ground perspective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troglodyte74
Face it, alien abduction is over and done insofar as "aliens actually abducting humans to produce hybrids" is concerned. Whatever the UFO phenomenon actually is, it's something far weirder than that anthropocentric explanation.
Let me and everyone else understand this correctly, so you are suggesting that the reports of alien abductions are pure fantasy for all those thousands of people? Do you consider regression hypnosis to be a flawed healing modality and of no use? Have you read the book and examined the evidence he presents? If not, how can you make judgements like these with any authority at all ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troglodyte74
The late Budd Hopkins, whose methods have now been thoroughly discredited along with Jacobs', lost me when he had to resort to the "invisibility" ploy in Witnessed, which is now almost 25 years ago. The reason we never see these abductions, you see, despite virtually the entire planet being blanketed by some form of photographic technology 24 hours a day, is that the aliens have mastered invisibility. Oh, uh-huh.
Ok, consider this - there are many animals which have different spectrum sensitivity. If you shine an IR light which we cannot see, it is quite possible that other beings can see the light clearly. Maybe this is why we have not captured an image of Bigfoot on a trail camera? See my point? The extension to this is that if aliens can see the IR, then they will switch off the camera and (IR) floodlight before they abduct. We just dont know what their biology is like or how advanced their technology is.
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Old 06-28-2017, 09:37 PM
 
331 posts, read 312,823 times
Reputation: 935
Quote:
Originally Posted by ocpaul20 View Post
Let me and everyone else understand this correctly, so you are suggesting that the reports of alien abductions are pure fantasy for all those thousands of people? Do you consider regression hypnosis to be a flawed healing modality and of no use? Have you read the book and examined the evidence he presents? If not, how can you make judgements like these with any authority at all?
I believe you're in such a hurry to make your points that you aren't really focusing on what's being said. Yes, I've read all of Jacobs' work. I'm very familiar with it. Yes, I believe regressive hypnosis is a highly suspect methodology for recovering abduction memories, reincarnation memories or Satanic abuse memories. Regressive hypnosis as practiced by the abduction "researchers" is especially suspect because they have been shown time and again to pose leading questions, fill in gaps for the hypnotic subject, and do pretty much everything else to achieve the results they want.

No, I don't believe the alien abduction reports are "pure fantasy." I never suggested any such thing. I believe there is a very real and puzzling phenomenon that is part of the overall UFO phenomenon but that has nothing to do with humans being plucked out of their homes by little gray aliens for the purpose of producing human-alien hybrids. In some respects, I believe the entire UFO phenomenon is "staged" and is not at all what it has been staged to seem.

I understand you're fascinated by this. I understand you're a Jacobs devotee. I believe you're wasting your time in precisely the same way that Richard Hoagland's and David Icke's devotees are wasting their time - but it's your time to waste. If anyone ever comes up with anything resembling a shred of credible evidence, get back to me.
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Old 06-28-2017, 10:55 PM
 
Location: UK
6,908 posts, read 6,819,931 times
Reputation: 6513
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troglodyte74
No, I don't believe the alien abduction reports are "pure fantasy." I never suggested any such thing. I believe there is a very real and puzzling phenomenon that is part of the overall UFO phenomenon but that has nothing to do with humans being plucked out of their homes by little gray aliens for the purpose of producing human-alien hybrids. In some respects, I believe the entire UFO phenomenon is "staged" and is not at all what it has been staged to seem.
So I see you are VERY willing to criticise and denigrate others opinions but also careful not to expose your own theory to the same scrutiny. Perhaps you believe all this is a military exercise and being used as a cover? That too has been put out there in some circles. Since this is a discussion, could you let us have your theory and opinion on this staged phenomena you think might be going on.
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