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Old 09-30-2017, 12:05 PM
 
Location: Falls Church, Fairfax County
5,162 posts, read 4,464,590 times
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^^^^^ This is a lot of space to say nothing. He does not speak of the ravine in which the bodies were found really and is not a medical examiner or doctor. He states that they may have fallen. If the area was so gentle why would he need extra equipment and strong men? I give him extra credit for saying that Soviet climbers are inferior to non Soviet climbers. Also one of the member had pain medication, not that it matters, but he brought it up. My conclusion is that you have come to a conclusion, will look for information to support it and will ignore and information that does not support it or counters it.
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Old 09-30-2017, 12:06 PM
 
Location: Falls Church, Fairfax County
5,162 posts, read 4,464,590 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
^
To begin with, I checked on people Donnie Eichar dealt with, when he came to Ural.

This is their recent movie, devoted to the events and the "tenth" member of of the group, that survived.
What can I say watching and listening to these people?
Number one - they come across first of all as the "fan club" of Yury Yudin, the "tenth."
This is the way for these people to feel relevant to some "important events" and re-live the days of their youth, since they are all from that area and many of them belonged either to the same hiking club as Dyatlov group did, or something similar. On top of that, they sound as typical "die hard Soviet youth," and of course they have their own theory of what happened to Dyatlov's group, which is.. well, some secret Soviet weapons, that were tested in the area, and the group became the victim of it somehow.
I mean these are Soviet people at heart, so these kind of theories should be expected from them I guess.
But when it comes to REAL files, Yury Yudin ( who was still alive in 2013) mumbles something uncertain, which gives an impression that he is not well-familiar with them, even though he played a big part in investigation. With other words, a nice man, but of no particular sophistication.
These people confirmed to me anything and everything I ever thought about B. Yeltsin, who was a disastrous president of Russia back in the 90ies, and who hailed from that particular area - he was the native of it. (That's the reason L. Ivanov was asking him to reopen investigation, but to no avail.)
So that's briefly about the group/person in charge who invited Donnie Eichar ( you can see his picture somewhere in this video too.)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUU8pUVUMHI

If you ask me, not the best source of information, that's why Donnie Eichar had such liberty to create his own theories ( plus I was really not thrilled with his style of writing - I saw the sample of it.)

Now from what I know, the best WRITING on a subject comes from someone named Alexey Rakitin, who comes up with even crazier theories ( with KGB and god knows what other international organization involved,) so I don't take it seriously, HOWEVER, with that being said, he is doing an excellent job, analyzing the files ( actually he is even using the originals in his work, the kind I am familiar with.)
And since his writing is based on close scrutiny of original files, I found couple of excerpts that explain rather nicely why the injuries of the hikers found in the ravine were not result of any fall, ( which is one of your major arguments with me as far as I can see.)
So it was easier for me to translate these excerpts where everything is summed up, than translate few files, in order to convey the picture/scene that investigators encountered.
Are you saying he was lying about the 24 foot ledge? Cause that is all that matters here.
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Old 10-01-2017, 10:44 PM
 
26,704 posts, read 22,343,784 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Guard View Post
^^^^^ This is a lot of space to say nothing. He does not speak of the ravine in which the bodies were found really and is not a medical examiner or doctor. He states that they may have fallen.
I understand from the context (while reading the files) that none of the search team/investigators think that they fall. Obviously they see something that excludes it.
So this is a picture that explains it ( yet again.)

https://s15.stc.all.kpcdn.net/share/...079/wx1080.jpg

Number one is the place where the hikers built their platform (to hide away from wind, presumably,) but their bodies were found even higher - the location number two.


Quote:
If the area was so gentle why would he need extra equipment and strong men?
Snow. A lot of snow, up to four meters from what I understand, that's why they couldn't even find the bodies initially.

Quote:
I give him extra credit for saying that Soviet climbers are inferior to non Soviet climbers.
That's not what he said, but I am not going to dwell on it, knowing YOUR mindset by now)))

Quote:
Also one of the member had pain medication, not that it matters, but he brought it up. My conclusion is that you have come to a conclusion, will look for information to support it and will ignore and information that does not support it or counters it.
I already saw all the information I needed to come to my conclusion, so before I'll even translate the investigator's letter - here it goes; ( first - excerpts from the same writer )



"On March 31, a very remarkable event happened-all the members of the search group who were in the camp in the Lozva Valley saw a UFO. Valentin Yakimenko, a participant in those events in his memoirs, described the incident very broadly: "It was still dark in the early morning. Victor Meshcheryakov who was on duty that day, left the tent and saw a glowing ball moving across the sky. He woke everyone up. For 20 minutes, the ball (or disk) moved, until it disappeared behind the mountainside. They saw it in the southeast of the tent. It moved in the northern direction. The phenomenon stirred everyone up. We were sure that the death of the Dyatlovites is somehow connected with it. "
What he saw was reported to the headquarters of the search operation, which was in Ivdel. The appearance of the UFO in files gave an unexpected direction to the investigation. Someone remembered that "fireballs" were observed about the same area before. And the investigation of of course knew about it, but it was ignoring this kind of reports. Now the vector of investigation sharply turned away from the hapless Mansi, who did not want to *confess* at all, and led the investigators completely in the opposite direction.
On April 7, 1959, the prosecutor of the city of Ivdel, Vasily Ivanovich Tempalov, interrogated a group of servicemen of the interior troops about the strange atmospheric phenomenon observed by them on February 17, 1959. He recorded the four witnesses' testimonies and added them to the case.
As an example, let us cite one of these noteworthy documents, written by the officer Alexander Savkin himself, the oldest of the respondents: "February 17, 1959, at 6:40 am, while on duty, (observed - A. R.) on the southern side (horizon - AR) appeared a ball of bright white light, which was periodically enveloped in thick fog. Inside this cloud there was a brightly glowing dot the size of an asterisk. Moving in the direction of the northern direction, the ball was visible for 8-10 minutes. "
Karelin spoke of "fireballs," and it turned out that he and his group witnessed the incident on February 17, 1959. The word of the eyewitness: "In connection with the death of the Djatlov group, we should tell about the unusual celestial phenomenon that we observed on our march on February 17, 1959 on the watershed valleys of the rivers north of Toshemka and Vizjai. Around 07:30 a.m Sverdlovsk time, I was awakened by the yelling of the people on duty preparing breakfast: "Guys, look, look, what a strange phenomenon!" I jumped out of the sleeping bag and out of the tent without shoes, in some woolen socks and, standing on the branches, I saw (in the sky - AR) a large bright spot. It grew. In the center of it appeared a small star, which also began to increase. All this spot moved from the northeast to the southwest and fell to the ground. Then it disappeared behind the forest and the ridge, leaving a bright strip in the sky. <...> All this phenomenon took place over a little more than a minute. "

( Same event was described in the article of the local newspaper on the February 18th by a different witness; the chief editor of the newspaper was reprimanded for publishing this information, as I've mentioned earlier.)

- on the evening of February 1, 1959, tourists from Mount Chistop see a strong glow in the Otorten area and hear a buzz (according to A.K. Krivonischenko; from his story we can conclude that we are talking about the tourists of the Blinov group, the same group with which the Dyatlov's gloup spent the first day on the road. It was the Blinov people, that could have been at the funeral of their friends, it were them going to Chistop mountain, so everything seems to converge here). The direction to Otorten is northeast, a distance of 45-50 km, and Otorten is situated below Chistop.
Taking all this into account, one can not but admit that we are talking about an air phenomenon - if something of the described happened on the surface of the Earth, then the observer from the Chistop mountain simply would not have seen anything. One can not question the timing - the event clearly took place in the evening, since the story mentions the preparation of the group for the night sleep.

- On the morning of February 2, 1959, a group of UPI students, judging by circumstances - same Blinov's group, as well as unnamed residents of town of Serov, again observed optical phenomena of incomprehensible nature (according to A. Dubinin). Don't think that the "Serov residents" are mentioned for nothing - most likely such people really existed and were known to Dubinin, who by virtue of his official position (he was a senior engineer of the Forestry Administration of the Sverdlovsk Economic Council), certainly had many acquaintances in the very different areas of the region, due to frequent trips to industry sites.
At that, the distance between Chistop and Serov is not small, and it is by no means a fact, that the observers in these places saw the same phenomenon. Perhaps they saw similar events that coincided, or took place close in time.

- Finally, on February 17, 1959, in the immediate vicinity of Ivdel, an optical phenomenon was again observed in the sky, the nature of which could not be explained by the spectators. Among these were servicemen of the interior troops of the Ivdel ITK, which is actually located within the boundaries of the settlement, as well as residents of more southern regions (in particular, workers and employees of the Vysokogorsky mine, located more than 350 km from Ivdel).
According to servicemen, the phenomenon began at 6:40 am and lasted from 8 to 15 minutes. According to observers outside Ivdel - it started at 06:55 and ended in 10 minutes.

- on the same day - February 17, 1959 - a similar phenomenon was seen by a group of tourists led by Vladislav Karelin. It was located on the watershed between the Vizhay and North Toshemka rivers, in principle, not very far from the village of Vizhay, so it can not be ruled out that the "Karelians" observed the phenomenon described in the paragraph above. However, attention is drawn to the discrepancy of the observation time - 7.30 am, which is later than the observation of the optical effect by military personnel, and the short duration of the event - only 1 minute. We can say that the "Karelians" saw the very end, but ... that's just the end of what?

- On March 31, 1959, witnesses of an unusual celestial phenomenon were already the members of a search operation, looking for Diatlov's group. Whatever happened in the sky above the tent of the search team, it was not very far. It is possible to contemplate on how objectively a person is able to estimate distances in the dark, focusing exclusively on one's own intuitive perception; ( as we know, only Krivonischenko mentioned the sound effect; all other descriptions report silent objects in the sky), but usually the intuition turns out to be quite trustworthy.
The picture, as you can see, is quite interesting. The region of the death of the Diatlov group is at the epicenter of what we can be reasonably described by the phrase "suspicious activity".

****

And now - the files.


Witness George Atamanaki. The exerpts from his terstimony straight from the files.

"On February 17, I and Vladimir Shevkunov got up at 6.00 in the morning to prepare breakfast for the group. After starting the fire and making necessary preparations, we waited for the food to be ready. The sky was greyish, there were no clouds, but there was a slight haze, which usually dissipates with the sun rise. We were sitting facing the north; I accidentally turned my head eastward, and I saw that a milky white blur about 5-6 moons in diameter and a series of concentric circles consisting of a row of them spreading in the sky at a height (...?). It resembled a halo around the moon in a clear frosty weather.
I made a comment to my partner - look how fancy the moon is painted. He paused a while and said that first of all there is no moon, and besides, it should be on the other side. From the moment we noticed this phenomenon, it took 1-2 minutes. How long it lasted before, and how did it initially looked, I do not know. At that moment, at the very center of this spot, an asterisk flared up, which for a few seconds remained the same size, and then began to increase sharply in size, rapidly moving in western direction. Within a few seconds, it grew to the size of the moon, and then tearing off the haze screen or clouds, appeared as a huge disc of milky color, 2-2.5 of moon diameter, surrounded by the same rings of pale color.
Then, remaining the same in size, the ball began to fade, until it merged with the surrounding halo, which in turn spread out across the sky and went out. It was dawn. The clock showed 6:57; the phenomenon lasted no more than a half minute and made a very uneasy impression.....
Initially, we did not pay attention to it, but then, when the glowing disk appeared, we were amazed. Personally, I had the impression that some heavenly body was falling in our direction. Then, when it had grown to such enormous size, a thought flashed through my mind that another planet is coming into contact with the earth, and now a collision would follow, and nothing would remain of all earthly things.
We were already awake for more than an hour, so we could already shake off the sleepiness and not believe in hallucinations. But we were standing through it all as hypnotized and only when....( unclear writing.)
I do not know how Karelin managed to jump out of the sleeping bag with lightning speed and run out into the street in his underwear, wearing socks . He managed to see the disc losing its outline and the bright spot spreading across the sky. I had to talk to a lot of eyewitnesses, and most people described this case in approximately the same way, and they added that the light from it was so strong, that people were awakened from sleep in their homes.

*****
And now - the excerpt from the testimony of the same witness, when he is talking about the discovery of the first bodies, and what he saw around the cedar tree, where the hickers came first, ( presumably) after leaving the tent.
... And finally, about one and a half kilometers away from tent, under the cedar tree, the bodies of Krivonischenko and Doroshenko were found (even earlier), lying side by side on a thin layer of fir branches. One of them layed buried face down with his hands under his head.
Another one was on his back, with his arms and legs pulled up somewhat. Both had almost no clothes except for the plaid shirts and a pair of long johns, that were torn to shreds on one of them; he had nothing on his feet as well. About two meters away from the place of their death, the traces of a fire remained behind the cedar tree, which was quite large, judging by the remaining chars with a diameter of up to 80 mm, burned in half. Everything was powdered with snow, but under the cedar someone's plaid shirt was found, a handkerchief, several socks, cuffs from a jacket or sweater and a few more small things. Somewhat closer to the cedar eight rubles were found, 3 and 5 rubles banknotes. About twenty meters around the cedar, there were indications that one of those present at the scene, cut a young fir trees with a knife. There were about twenty of such cuts, but we didn't find the trunks, except for one.
We couldn't guess that they were used for the fire, because in the first place, they burn poorly, and besides there was enough of dry branches around for the fire. In addition, there was no need to cut or chop, because all these young shoots could be easily broken even with a small effort. One could think that people who did all this were either greatly weakened, or they were not in right mind. On the cedar itself there were traces of the fresh fructures.
Most dry branches were broken up to a height of 5 meters. In addition, the side of the cedar facing the slope on which the tent stood, was cleared of branches at the height of 4-5 meters. These damp branches were not used, and were partially laying on the ground, and partially hanging on the lower branches of the cedar. It looked as if people had created something like a window, so that they could look from the top of the cedar into the direction where they came from and their tent.
The amount of work done around the cedar, as well as the presence of many things that obviously could not belong to the two comrades found suggests that the fire had gathered the most, if not the whole group...
It is unclear why Krivonischenko and Doroshenko were dressed only in thier underwear, because during the winter hikes, and particularly in the condition of cold overnight, it is not customary to undress to such an extent. It is possible that the emergency occurred either at the time of clothing change (evening or morning), or they were undressed later, because the version that they could lose clothes during running or walking is not very realistic."

Now when you read all this, tell me please WHAT could possibly push people out of their tent, in the wilderness in the midst of winter, during the night/early morning if not a sight of something creepy approaching them?
And why would they try to see what's going on with their tent ( and vicinity) before going back?
My guess is, at certain point in time they decided to go back, when they saw that this "something" was gone. However this very "something" caught up with them and reappeared at the place where they were hiding - that's what I think.
I believe that the investigator ( L. Ivanov that is) came to the same conclusion, that something sinister was involved, because this case was not adding up.

But I'll translate his letter next as I've promised.

Last edited by erasure; 10-01-2017 at 11:28 PM..
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Old 10-01-2017, 11:10 PM
 
26,704 posts, read 22,343,784 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Guard View Post
Are you saying he was lying about the 24 foot ledge? Cause that is all that matters here.
I don't think he is lying - may be such ledge WAS there.
But in the context of what the investigation team saw, they didn't believe that the four specifically found that place and jumped heads down from it.

If you have enough of patience, you can "walk" through the whole area yourself -


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qpJi6iNWF0

( here the small red flags point at the locations of the first found bodies.)

And the next video starts with the very ravine ( the place where the platform was and the place where Dubinina was found. The coverage of snow is about 4 meters - i.e. same picture more or less that the search team saw back in 1959.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sH-3jOO9QI0
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Old 10-02-2017, 06:46 AM
 
Location: Falls Church, Fairfax County
5,162 posts, read 4,464,590 times
Reputation: 6336
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
I understand from the context (while reading the files) that none of the search team/investigators think that they fall. Obviously they see something that excludes it.
So this is a picture that explains it ( yet again.)

https://s15.stc.all.kpcdn.net/share/...079/wx1080.jpg
This picture is not very clear. I am not sure what is going on here. It does look like 1 is much lower than to the left of C.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Number one is the place where the hikers built their platform (to hide away from wind, presumably,) but their bodies were found even higher - the location number two.
I believe it is presumed that they were already injured when building the platform?
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Snow. A lot of snow, up to four meters from what I understand, that's why they couldn't even find the bodies initially.
A 4 meter fall onto trees and stone is a lot.....

Also from my experience moving in dark woods trees are effing hard. That is one of the worst things, walking and slamming your shin into a fallen tree or smashing into it when trying to climb over it.

Falling into them the right way will easily break a leg.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
That's not what he said, but I am not going to dwell on it, knowing YOUR mindset by now)))
It actually is what he said. Kind of surprising but I'll allow it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
I already saw all the information I needed to come to my conclusion, so before I'll even translate the investigator's letter - here it goes; ( first - excerpts from the same writer )
What is your conclusion?
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
"On March 31, a very remarkable event happened-all the members of the search group who were in the camp in the Lozva Valley saw a UFO. Valentin Yakimenko, a participant in those events in his memoirs, described the incident very broadly: "It was still dark in the early morning. Victor Meshcheryakov who was on duty that day, left the tent and saw a glowing ball moving across the sky. He woke everyone up. For 20 minutes, the ball (or disk) moved, until it disappeared behind the mountainside. They saw it in the southeast of the tent. It moved in the northern direction. The phenomenon stirred everyone up. We were sure that the death of the Dyatlovites is somehow connected with it. "
What he saw was reported to the headquarters of the search operation, which was in Ivdel. The appearance of the UFO in files gave an unexpected direction to the investigation. Someone remembered that "fireballs" were observed about the same area before. And the investigation of of course knew about it, but it was ignoring this kind of reports. Now the vector of investigation sharply turned away from the hapless Mansi, who did not want to *confess* at all, and led the investigators completely in the opposite direction.
According to the book I cited earlier there were rocket tests in the area but none until the middle of the month. There was a report from other hikers that it happened the same night that the Dyatlov group imploded but when checked out they were mistaken.

Also, amazingly another report of a UFO when UFO's did not exist...
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
On April 7, 1959, the prosecutor of the city of Ivdel, Vasily Ivanovich Tempalov, interrogated a group of servicemen of the interior troops about the strange atmospheric phenomenon observed by them on February 17, 1959. He recorded the four witnesses' testimonies and added them to the case.
As an example, let us cite one of these noteworthy documents, written by the officer Alexander Savkin himself, the oldest of the respondents: "February 17, 1959, at 6:40 am, while on duty, (observed - A. R.) on the southern side (horizon - AR) appeared a ball of bright white light, which was periodically enveloped in thick fog. Inside this cloud there was a brightly glowing dot the size of an asterisk. Moving in the direction of the northern direction, the ball was visible for 8-10 minutes. "
Karelin spoke of "fireballs," and it turned out that he and his group witnessed the incident on February 17, 1959. The word of the eyewitness: "In connection with the death of the Djatlov group, we should tell about the unusual celestial phenomenon that we observed on our march on February 17, 1959 on the watershed valleys of the rivers north of Toshemka and Vizjai. Around 07:30 a.m Sverdlovsk time, I was awakened by the yelling of the people on duty preparing breakfast: "Guys, look, look, what a strange phenomenon!" I jumped out of the sleeping bag and out of the tent without shoes, in some woolen socks and, standing on the branches, I saw (in the sky - AR) a large bright spot. It grew. In the center of it appeared a small star, which also began to increase. All this spot moved from the northeast to the southwest and fell to the ground. Then it disappeared behind the forest and the ridge, leaving a bright strip in the sky. <...> All this phenomenon took place over a little more than a minute. "
This could be rocket testing. Oddly they watched it without the feeling to flee naked to their deaths...
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post

( Same event was described in the article of the local newspaper on the February 18th by a different witness; the chief editor of the newspaper was reprimanded for publishing this information, as I've mentioned earlier.)

- on the evening of February 1, 1959, tourists from Mount Chistop see a strong glow in the Otorten area and hear a buzz (according to A.K. Krivonischenko; from his story we can conclude that we are talking about the tourists of the Blinov group, the same group with which the Dyatlov's gloup spent the first day on the road. It was the Blinov people, that could have been at the funeral of their friends, it were them going to Chistop mountain, so everything seems to converge here). The direction to Otorten is northeast, a distance of 45-50 km, and Otorten is situated below Chistop.
Taking all this into account, one can not but admit that we are talking about an air phenomenon - if something of the described happened on the surface of the Earth, then the observer from the Chistop mountain simply would not have seen anything. One can not question the timing - the event clearly took place in the evening, since the story mentions the preparation of the group for the night sleep.

- On the morning of February 2, 1959, a group of UPI students, judging by circumstances - same Blinov's group, as well as unnamed residents of town of Serov, again observed optical phenomena of incomprehensible nature (according to A. Dubinin). Don't think that the "Serov residents" are mentioned for nothing - most likely such people really existed and were known to Dubinin, who by virtue of his official position (he was a senior engineer of the Forestry Administration of the Sverdlovsk Economic Council), certainly had many acquaintances in the very different areas of the region, due to frequent trips to industry sites.
At that, the distance between Chistop and Serov is not small, and it is by no means a fact, that the observers in these places saw the same phenomenon. Perhaps they saw similar events that coincided, or took place close in time.

- Finally, on February 17, 1959, in the immediate vicinity of Ivdel, an optical phenomenon was again observed in the sky, the nature of which could not be explained by the spectators. Among these were servicemen of the interior troops of the Ivdel ITK, which is actually located within the boundaries of the settlement, as well as residents of more southern regions (in particular, workers and employees of the Vysokogorsky mine, located more than 350 km from Ivdel).
According to servicemen, the phenomenon began at 6:40 am and lasted from 8 to 15 minutes. According to observers outside Ivdel - it started at 06:55 and ended in 10 minutes.

- on the same day - February 17, 1959 - a similar phenomenon was seen by a group of tourists led by Vladislav Karelin. It was located on the watershed between the Vizhay and North Toshemka rivers, in principle, not very far from the village of Vizhay, so it can not be ruled out that the "Karelians" observed the phenomenon described in the paragraph above. However, attention is drawn to the discrepancy of the observation time - 7.30 am, which is later than the observation of the optical effect by military personnel, and the short duration of the event - only 1 minute. We can say that the "Karelians" saw the very end, but ... that's just the end of what?

- On March 31, 1959, witnesses of an unusual celestial phenomenon were already the members of a search operation, looking for Diatlov's group. Whatever happened in the sky above the tent of the search team, it was not very far. It is possible to contemplate on how objectively a person is able to estimate distances in the dark, focusing exclusively on one's own intuitive perception; ( as we know, only Krivonischenko mentioned the sound effect; all other descriptions report silent objects in the sky), but usually the intuition turns out to be quite trustworthy.
The picture, as you can see, is quite interesting. The region of the death of the Diatlov group is at the epicenter of what we can be reasonably described by the phrase "suspicious activity".

****

And now - the files.


Witness George Atamanaki. The exerpts from his terstimony straight from the files.

"On February 17, I and Vladimir Shevkunov got up at 6.00 in the morning to prepare breakfast for the group. After starting the fire and making necessary preparations, we waited for the food to be ready. The sky was greyish, there were no clouds, but there was a slight haze, which usually dissipates with the sun rise. We were sitting facing the north; I accidentally turned my head eastward, and I saw that a milky white blur about 5-6 moons in diameter and a series of concentric circles consisting of a row of them spreading in the sky at a height (...?). It resembled a halo around the moon in a clear frosty weather.
I made a comment to my partner - look how fancy the moon is painted. He paused a while and said that first of all there is no moon, and besides, it should be on the other side. From the moment we noticed this phenomenon, it took 1-2 minutes. How long it lasted before, and how did it initially looked, I do not know. At that moment, at the very center of this spot, an asterisk flared up, which for a few seconds remained the same size, and then began to increase sharply in size, rapidly moving in western direction. Within a few seconds, it grew to the size of the moon, and then tearing off the haze screen or clouds, appeared as a huge disc of milky color, 2-2.5 of moon diameter, surrounded by the same rings of pale color.
Then, remaining the same in size, the ball began to fade, until it merged with the surrounding halo, which in turn spread out across the sky and went out. It was dawn. The clock showed 6:57; the phenomenon lasted no more than a half minute and made a very uneasy impression.....
Initially, we did not pay attention to it, but then, when the glowing disk appeared, we were amazed. Personally, I had the impression that some heavenly body was falling in our direction. Then, when it had grown to such enormous size, a thought flashed through my mind that another planet is coming into contact with the earth, and now a collision would follow, and nothing would remain of all earthly things.
We were already awake for more than an hour, so we could already shake off the sleepiness and not believe in hallucinations. But we were standing through it all as hypnotized and only when....( unclear writing.)
I do not know how Karelin managed to jump out of the sleeping bag with lightning speed and run out into the street in his underwear, wearing socks
Please remember this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
. He managed to see the disc losing its outline and the bright spot spreading across the sky. I had to talk to a lot of eyewitnesses, and most people described this case in approximately the same way, and they added that the light from it was so strong, that people were awakened from sleep in their homes.

*****
And now - the excerpt from the testimony of the same witness, when he is talking about the discovery of the first bodies, and what he saw around the cedar tree, where the hickers came first, ( presumably) after leaving the tent.
... And finally, about one and a half kilometers away from tent, under the cedar tree, the bodies of Krivonischenko and Doroshenko were found (even earlier), lying side by side on a thin layer of fir branches. One of them layed buried face down with his hands under his head.
Another one was on his back, with his arms and legs pulled up somewhat. Both had almost no clothes except for the plaid shirts and a pair of long johns, that were torn to shreds on one of them; he had nothing on his feet as well. About two meters away from the place of their death, the traces of a fire remained behind the cedar tree, which was quite large, judging by the remaining chars with a diameter of up to 80 mm, burned in half. Everything was powdered with snow, but under the cedar someone's plaid shirt was found, a handkerchief, several socks, cuffs from a jacket or sweater and a few more small things. Somewhat closer to the cedar eight rubles were found, 3 and 5 rubles banknotes. About twenty meters around the cedar, there were indications that one of those present at the scene, cut a young fir trees with a knife. There were about twenty of such cuts, but we didn't find the trunks, except for one.
We couldn't guess that they were used for the fire, because in the first place, they burn poorly, and besides there was enough of dry branches around for the fire. In addition, there was no need to cut or chop, because all these young shoots could be easily broken even with a small effort. One could think that people who did all this were either greatly weakened, or they were not in right mind. On the cedar itself there were traces of the fresh fructures.
Most dry branches were broken up to a height of 5 meters. In addition, the side of the cedar facing the slope on which the tent stood, was cleared of branches at the height of 4-5 meters. These damp branches were not used, and were partially laying on the ground, and partially hanging on the lower branches of the cedar. It looked as if people had created something like a window, so that they could look from the top of the cedar into the direction where they came from and their tent.
The amount of work done around the cedar, as well as the presence of many things that obviously could not belong to the two comrades found suggests that the fire had gathered the most, if not the whole group...
It is unclear why Krivonischenko and Doroshenko were dressed only in thier underwear, because during the winter hikes, and particularly in the condition of cold overnight, it is not customary to undress to such an extent.
OK, just above his buddy, Karelin, jumps out of his sleeping bag wearing just his underwear and socks and now it is unusual? The lies and mental gymnastics in this case are strong.

i will also say from personal experience that you do not wear your clothes in your sleeping bag. You can take them off and keep them at the foot of the bag and sometimes use your shirt as a pillow. Wearing the clothes in the sleeping bag would prevent them from drying out, maybe make you sweat even more making them wetter and acclimate you to a higher temp.
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Originally Posted by erasure View Post
It is possible that the emergency occurred either at the time of clothing change (evening or morning), or they were undressed later, because the version that they could lose clothes during running or walking is not very realistic."
But you said it happened while they were peeing!!
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Now when you read all this, tell me please WHAT could possibly push people out of their tent, in the wilderness in the midst of winter, during the night/early morning if not a sight of something creepy approaching them?

I do not know why they left their tent. It could be that they were scared that they camped in the wrong area and as the night went on regretted their decision even more, thinking about it until they were paranoid. They could have heard a sound that they thought was an avalanche and abandoned their tent because of this. From my understanding the tent was found partially collapsed with snow on it.

Can you tell if it is a small amount of snow or an avalanche when it first starts? If they were in their tent would they even see a rocket test or someone outside? Also there has been no other tracks found in the area and the wounds supposed to not be from fighting or defensive in nature.

Something creepy approaching them would leave tracks. Were there tracks? How do you see something approaching you if you are in a tent with light and it is dark outside?

You made a point earlier, before abandoning it, that these were very experienced hikers. Surely if there was something they would know their best chance would be to defend the camp and not flee into the night in their underwear. I mean if I were camping and a bear was outside I would have to either chase the bear away or avoid it without abandoning the camp because I know that in the snow without boots you are effed. I do not want my feet to be amputated. YMMV
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And why would they try to see what's going on with their tent ( and vicinity) before going back?
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Again this is just speculation. We have no idea what they were doing or why. If they were in their right mind or if hypothermia and fear had started to make them act irrationally.

I watched a show on Saturday that stated that they believe that 2(?) of the party members had burning on their legs as if they had thrust their legs into a fire to heat them. No matter what you believe they were clearly desperate at some point.
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My guess is, at certain point in time they decided to go back, when they saw that this "something" was gone. However this very "something" caught up with them and reappeared at the place where they were hiding - that's what I think.
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That is fine but there do not seem to be defensive wounds or tracks. Even though you do not like the thought that they caused this themselves and died from a tragic, but predictable, course of events there is certainly more proof to support that then they were attacked by some magical being(s) that killed half the party with hypothermia and the other with internal injuries.
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I believe that the investigator ( L. Ivanov that is) came to the same conclusion, that something sinister was involved, because this case was not adding up.

But I'll translate his letter next as I've promised.
I do not care about the letter he wrote 30 years after the event. If it contradicts his initial report we know he is a liar, we just do not know what he is lying about or why.
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Old 10-02-2017, 06:47 AM
 
Location: Falls Church, Fairfax County
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I don't think he is lying - may be such ledge WAS there.
But in the context of what the investigation team saw, they didn't believe that the four specifically found that place and jumped heads down from it.
I did not say this, it is this and other lies you have to tell that make me think you know your claims are weak.
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Old 10-05-2017, 11:10 PM
 
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There we go - the first part of Ivanov's article ( letter to the newspaper) from 22 and 24th of November 1990

The mystery of the fireballs

We are beginning to get used to the fact that some newspapers in their pursuit of the sensation, often publish untested or even completely untrue information. I was interested in the publication in the ( newspaper) "Lenin's way'" of a UFO based on reports in American media (L.W. No. 210 of October 30, 1990). I was interested in the reliability of it, because they justly write that the official authorities often keep silence about the obvious facts of the appearance of a UFO.
This is indeed so. And I would like to tell you, how it's done here ( i.e. in Russia.)
Thirty years ago I myself had to deal with this problem in official capacity, except for in my case this was related to very tragic circumstances.

Everything I am going to tell you here, is confirmed by the official papers kept today in the files of the criminal case in the State Archives of Sverdlovsk Region. For this reason, I am not going to change either the names of the people involved, or the dates of the incident. There will be no author's conjectures in my information. Everything was completely documented and made public thirty years later, based on the initiative of the editorial board of the Sverdlovsk newspaper "Ural worker" in 1990.

One day in April of this year, my phone rang up in my apartment. My interlocutor at the other end, a correspondent of the newspaper the "Ural Worker" named Bogomolov, asked my permission to fly from Sverdlovsk to clarify the details of one sensitive case. I agreed.
And so we sit in my apartment until midnight, and I answer questions about the events of the bygone days.
So what did Sverdlovsk public wanted to know ?

There is a tourist club in the Ural Polytechnic Institute (i.e. University), named after Igor Dyatlov, who died in a hike with a group of UPI students long time ago. In Sverdlovsk, at the Michailov cemetery, there is a monument to nine UPI students who died in one of the tourist trips to the Subpolar Ural in 1959. But no one knew the reason of the death of such a large group of tourists, since the dead were buried in closed coffins and there was no information on this case. Besides, thirty years passed since then.

But students are persistent people, so they continued to search. It turned out that Perestroyka reorganization touched also the special storage facilities, or, to be put in more simple terms, the secrecy classification was removed from the top secret archives, including one particular criminal case that was investigated back in 1959.
Students - members of the club, got acquainted with the materials of this case and with the secret packages stored in the file. They were highly puzzled, since the official version of the cause of death of Dyatlov's group announced then, had nothing in common with the data they discovered in the declassified criminal case .

Students began to look for people who knew anything about this incident, but could not identify any. And then they correctly decided that it was necessary to look for a prosecutor or an investigator who would clarify this case.
In his book "Confession on a Given Topic," ( then president) Boris N. Yeltsin writes that even after graduating from the institute (University) in 1956, he often went with friends to hiking trips. At that time, about which Boris Nikolayevich writes, complex hiking trips to the Subpolar Urals, or as they were classified, of the highest (third) category of difficulty, were the favorite type of recreation for young people - they cultivated courage, and a sense of close friendship, up to self-sacrifiction.

This was exactly the case.
At the end of January 1959, a group of skiers made of the students and graduates of the UPI (two girls and seven men) went on a hike, declared as a trip of the 3rd category of complexity, with the aim of traversing the peaks (pass along them) of the Subpolar Urals with the ascent to Mount Otorten, situated north of Ivdel, in the upstream flow of the Auspia river, the tributary of Lozva.

In the conditions of the worsening meteorological situation (snowstorm, freezing cold), skiers were too late with the ascent to the mountain, but nevertheless, despite the unfavorable weather and twilight settling in, they decided to finish the climb, have a rest, spend the night at the mountain, and in the morning to proceed to another peak.
When the tent was set up and the tourists settled for the night, some force threw them all out of their tent with no clothes on, and scattered them across the valley. All of them died.

With the help of sappers and volunteering students with the assistance of Ural aviation, from February to May, the searches for the dead were conducted. They were found at different times within a radius of one and a half kilometers away from the place where they spent the night. They were transported to Sverdlovsk and buried here. That's all that was known to the relatives and the public of Sverdlovsk. Everyone was told that the tourists were in an extreme situation and were froze to death.

However, it was not true. The true reasons for the death of hikers were hidden from the people, and these reasons were known to a few: the former first secretary of the regional committee, A.P. Kirilenko, the second secretary of the regional committee, A.F. Eshtokin, the regional prosecutor N.I. Klimov and the author of this letter; people who were investigating the case . Today, neither Kirilenko, nor Yeshtokin, nor Klimov are alive.
The events developed as follow. On January 31, 1959, a group of tourists led by an experienced leader Igor Dyatlov, set up a food storage in the valley of the Auspia River, and began the ascent to the summit of Ototorten. According to the schedule of the route, Dyatlov's group should have arrived on 6 February on a checkpoint in the village. Vizhay, and to telegraph to the sport committee of Sverdlovsk on the completion of their trip. But by this time the group didn't show up in the village. The tenth member of the group that couldn't join them, still stayed behind In Vizhay because of his illness, and he was the one who sounded the alarm.

The Executive Committee of the Regional Council immediately set up a rescue team with the participation of sappers and aviation, as well as volunteer tourists. The general management was headed by the master of sports in tourism E.P. Maslennikov, and the investigation was entrusted to me. We flew to Ivdel on planes, and from there the military helicopters brought us to the taiga. We were also given the experienced pathfinders of the labor camp and the Mansi hunters.


As a criminalist prosecutor, I had to take on the investigation or lead the investigation of the most complicated cases. Apparently, this circumstance, as well as my military service in the airborne troops during the war, played a major role. That's how I found myself in the impassable Ural taiga, in a canvas tent during the most bitter winter time, from February till May.

My goal is not to tell you how the search went, how the investigation went. All this is extremely interesting and instructive, but the newspaper space has its own limits. To some extent of course, with a great deal of conjecture and fiction, all this is described in the book of the participant of our expedition Boris Yarovoi "The stage of Highest Difficulty", published 20 years ago in Sverdlovsk. I just want, as I promised at the beginning of the article, to tell about the mysterious phenomena that appear from time to time on a planet Earth, which no one can still explain.


When we landed in the taiga, and then climbed to the mountain of Otorten, literally at the very top we discovered and dug up a snow-covered tent of tourists.
Inspection of the tent showed that the outerwear of tourists-jackets and trousers-remained there untouched; as well as backpacks with all their contents. It is known that tourists even in winter time, take their outerwear off when when they settle for the night in a tent. We did the same by the way in our tent, even though the temperature in it never rose above minus four degrees.


The presence in the tent of all clothing and literally all other things, including diaries, cameras, foodproducts, indicated that people left the tent abruptly. Already later I found that there were two long incisions in the tent through which people left it. These inscisions were cut with a knife from the inside.


There was not a single drop of blood in the tent or near it, which indicated that all the tourists left the tent, without any injuries. The latter circumstance will be of utmost importance in the future references.
From the tent, down from the mountain to the valley, there were sometimes eight, sometimes nine tracks of footprints. In the mountains when snow becomes frozen, the footprints are not swept by snow, but on the contrary, they look like columns, because the footprints under snow are condensed, while the surrounding snow is blown away with the wind.

The presence of nine rows of tracks confirmed that all the tourists walked on their own, no one was carrying anyone. But then a mystery occurred. One and a half kilometers away from the tent, in the river valley, near the old cedar, the tourists that escaped from the tent made a fire, and then began to die one by one.
Based on the developed films made by the tourists during their last evening and taking into account the density of the negatives, the sensitivity of the film (since the package was still around), the diaphragm settings and the exposure on the cameras, I managed to "attach" the frames to the time of their shooting and got the richest information. However this still did not answer the main question: what was the reason for the flight of tourists from the tent.


There are no minor details in investigation; investigators have a motto: attention to detail! A natural trace was found near the tent indicating that one man came out of it for a small need. He went out wearing only a knitted woolen socks ("for a couple of minutes "). Then the same footprints of shoeless legs can be traced down to the valley.
There was every reason to make a guess that it was this man who alarmed the rest and he himself did not have time to put shoes on. Hence, there was some terrifying power, that not only frightened him, but also all the others, forcing them to leave the tent abruptly and seek refuge in the taiga below. To find this force, or at least approach it, was the task of our investigation.


On February 26, 1959 at the bottom (of the mountain), on the edge of the taiga, we found the remains of a small fire and found the bodies of Doroshenko and Krivonischenko tourists dressed only in their underwear. Then, in the direction of the tent, the body of Igor Dyatlov was discovered. Not far from him there were two more - Slobodin and Kolmogorova. Without getting into too many details, I will say that the last three were the most physically strong and strong-willed personalities; they crawled from campfire to tent to get clothes - it was quite obvious judging by their poses. A subsequent autopsy showed that these three courageous people died from hypothermia - they were frozen to death, although they were dressed better than others.
Already in May, near the fire, under a five-meter layer of snow, we found the dead Dubinina, Zolotarev, Thibo- Brignol and Kolevatov. During external examination no damages were on their bodies. The sensation came, when we conducted an autopsy of these corpses in the Sverdlovsk morgue. Dubinina, Thibault- Brignol and Zolotarev had extensive, completely incompatible with life internal injuries.


Luda Dubinpna for example, had 2, 3, 4, 5 ribs broken on the right side and 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 on her left side. One of the rib fragments even penetrated the heart. Zolotarev had 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ribs broken. Take a note - all this without any visible external injuries. Such damage, as I described, usually happens when a directed large force acts on a person, for example, a car at a high speed. But such damage can not be obtained from a fall from one's own height.


In the vicinity of the Mount Otorten and the surrounding area there were boulders and stones of various configurations covered with snow, but they were not on the tourists' path (remember their tracks), and naturally no one was throwing these stones into the tourists. There were no external bruises. Consequently, there was a directed force that was selectively applied to some individuals, excluding others. Although, there were certain circumstances which I want to tell you about..

When already in May I and E.P Maslennikov examined the scene of the incident, we discovered that some young fir trees on the border of the forest were slightly burned, but the traces of it did not have a concentric shape or shape of any other system. There was no epicenter as well.


This confirmed yet again that it was the vector of a heat ray, or some powerful, but in any case completely unknown to us energy, acting selectively; the snow was not melted, the trees were not damaged. There was an impression that when tourists walked on their feet more than five hundred meters down the mountain, someone finished some of them off, in selective manner.


Nowadays they talk a lot about the period of the fifties, just to shift responsibility for the past onto someone. Back then it was a time of strict, I would say, unconditional discipline, especially in the work of law enforcement agencies. There was no L. Beria already, but spirit of Beria, was still alive. Even now we are barely parting with it.
When together with the regional prosecutor I reported the initial data to the first secretary of the regional committee of the ( Communist) party A. P. Kirilenko, he gave a clear command - to keep the whole work classified, so that not a single word of information could leak. Kirilenko ordered to bury tourists in closed coffins and tell relatives that tourists died from hypothermia.


N. Khrushchev was notified about the event at the very beginning of it, and as it became known from the publication of one of the participants of the search party, who was the correspondent of the newspaper, Khrushev spoke against any reporting on this issue, until all the investigation was carried out, and all the tourists were found.
But when they found the rest of hikers and discovered the details (that I described above,) now Kirilenko did not want to inform Khrushchev any longer. And the matter at such a high level was extinguished by itself. All the appeals of the relatives ( of the deceased) were kicked into the long grass. This was the order of things in the country back then, and we were not the ones that created it.

One more thing is that when the investigation was underway, a tiny article appeared in the newspaper "Tagil Worker," on a subject that during the time when the students were on Mount Otorten, a fireball was seen in the sky of Nizhny Tagil, or as they say now - an Unidentified Flying Object. This glowing object moved silently toward the northern peaks of the Ural Mountains. The author of the note asked: what could it be? For the publication of such an article, the editor of the newspaper was reprimanded, and I was suggested by the regional committee to not to go in this direction with my investigation. The second secretary of the regional committee of the communist party A.F ​​Eshtokin took the management of my case in his hands.

At that time, we still knew very little about Unidentified Flying Objects, we did not know about radiation either. The ban on these topics was caused by the possibility of even accidental disclosure of information about missile and nuclear technology, the development of which was really only beginning at that time, and there was a period in the world that was called the "Cold war".

Yet I still had to conduct my investigation - I'm a professional forensic scientist after all and I had to find the answer. So I still decided, despite the ban, with the preservation of the highest degree of secrecy to work on this topic, since other versions, including the attack by other people, or wild beasts, or fall during the hurricane, etc., were excluded by the evidence found. It was clear to me who and in what sequence perished - a thorough examination of the corpses, their clothes and other data indicated it. The only things left, were the skies and its content - the energy unknown to us, which turned out to be more powerful than human strength.


Having arranged an agreement with the scientists of UFAN (the Ural branch of the Academy of Sciences of the USSR), I conducted very extensive studies of clothes and organs of the victims in terms of "radiation." For comparison, we took clothes and internal organs of people who died in car accidents or died of natural death. The results were amazing. For nonspecialists, the results of the analysis will not say anything, but I will mention following: a brown sweater of one of the hikers who had injuries, produced 9900 disintegrations? per minute, and after the flushing? of the sample - 5200 disintegrations. I.e., this data indicated the presence of radioactive "dirt ", that was washed away.
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Old 10-06-2017, 08:35 AM
 
Location: Falls Church, Fairfax County
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This confirmed yet again that it was the vector of a heat ray, or some powerful, but in any case completely unknown to us energy, acting selectively; the snow was not melted, the trees were not damaged. There was an impression that when tourists walked on their feet more than five hundred meters down the mountain, someone finished some of them off, in selective manner.
This guy is a liar and a loon. He is a poor investigator. He does not list facts, he tells a story. The guy did not even measure and record the holes in the tent. Who goes out into snow to pee in their socks? That just gets your socks wet. He came up with a story to suit what he wanted and states it as fact.
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Old 10-06-2017, 11:03 AM
 
Location: State of Transition
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Erasure, I haven't followed the thread just lately, but I see you say there was a survivor. So what did he say about the whole thing? What was his report? Why is there so much speculation, if someone who lived through it survived to talk about it?
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Old 10-06-2017, 02:44 PM
 
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How about he Bigfoot/yet theory? Wasn't one caught on camera??

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