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Old 05-01-2018, 12:31 PM
 
28,122 posts, read 12,443,956 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Guard View Post
Yes, I believe "They" would let it out. I do not think "They" can hide it. There really is no hiding it.
I strongly disagree, and I assume when we are referring to 'they' we are talking about 'Govt/powers that be'...right?

Consider the JFK files that were recently in the news, and how CIA and FBI were trying to challenge de-classifying a certain part of those records, this shows they are willing to HIDE/ WITHHOLD important things from the public, it also proves how effective Govt is at keeping BIG secrets over long periods of time, in all that time since JFK was killed, NOT A SINGLE person leaked any of this out, not even with all the people coming and going from those agencies in all those years...that alone is very impressive!

If they discovered indisputable proof of a past civilization on another planet, this would risk causing a panic among all the organized religions of the world.

Its sort of like if there was a big asteroid headed for a direct hit with earth, but it wouldnt get here for another 5 years, 'they' would NEVER inform the public of this 'too soon', such news would cause instant chaos and panic, society would break down overnight, it would best to withhold that kind of news until the very last minute.
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Old 05-01-2018, 01:42 PM
 
Location: Falls Church, Fairfax County
5,162 posts, read 4,459,473 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens62 View Post
I strongly disagree, and I assume when we are referring to 'they' we are talking about 'Govt/powers that be'...right?
I believe so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens62 View Post
Consider the JFK files that were recently in the news, and how CIA and FBI were trying to challenge de-classifying a certain part of those records, this shows they are willing to HIDE/ WITHHOLD important things from the public, it also proves how effective Govt is at keeping BIG secrets over long periods of time, in all that time since JFK was killed, NOT A SINGLE person leaked any of this out, not even with all the people coming and going from those agencies in all those years...that alone is very impressive!
I am not sure that anything impressive came out of those files, nothing that really changed anything concrete. I am really not surprised that people would hold things like this secret for whatever reason. It certainly is not on the same level of sentient aliens visiting earth. Also the Kennedy assassination was a US show. For sentient alien life we are talking about all governments and all governments do not have the same agenda.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens62 View Post
If they discovered indisputable proof of a past civilization on another planet, this would risk causing a panic among all the organized religions of the world.
Proof? Would YOU panic or is this just a way to put out that you are better than everyone else?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens62 View Post
Its sort of like if there was a big asteroid headed for a direct hit with earth, but it wouldnt get here for another 5 years, 'they' would NEVER inform the public of this 'too soon', such news would cause instant chaos and panic, society would break down overnight, it would best to withhold that kind of news until the very last minute.
Again, do you have any proof of this? It is easy to accuse "they" without proof or anything to support your claim. I mean you are just self validating what you say as fact.

In the case of a big asteroid it would not only be various governments but it would be amateur astronomers as well. All these theories seem to be less about truth and more about being smarter than everyone else, but without proof or peer review. I think this is a little disingenuous to say the least. I do not mind discussing facts, what I do not think should be brought up is opinion disguised as fact.
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Old 05-01-2018, 03:37 PM
 
Location: Swiftwater, PA
18,755 posts, read 17,992,748 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Guard View Post
ocpaul20 frequently targets US Government agencies. I personally feel there is an agenda there.
Our US government is an easy target and they collect tax money from us (great reason to question their actions). When it comes to out-of-world coverups; you would think one of the other major powers would release information about life on Mars or any other world. We still have a space race going on; no matter how much we agree or disagree. Finding signs of life on Mars or any other planet would be major news and win accolades for any nation that made that discovery. It would be a 'smell me' like the first Russian Sputnik or our landing on the moon. I cannot picture politicians leaving the information for opponents to use!
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Old 05-01-2018, 03:52 PM
 
Location: Greenville, SC
6,219 posts, read 5,903,809 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens62 View Post
If they discovered indisputable proof of a past civilization on another planet, this would risk causing a panic among all the organized religions of the world., society would break down overnight, it would best to withhold that kind of news until the very last minute.
I've responded to this claim at least once before in this forum. maybe more than that. The notion of societal collapse is I believe mistaken, for the following reason:

Buddhists, Hindus, Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, non-fundie Jews and Moslems, and people in mainline Protestant denominations would not freak out. That's the majority of believers in one or another of the organized religions (I'm not sure what an unorganized religion would be, in any case). I've posted links before, I'm not going to do it again -- in your search engine, search for "can X believe in aliens" where X is the organized religion of choice. The Vatican has speculated on existence of intelligent life elsewhere, as have some Eastern Orthodox theologians and those from other traditions.

Fundamentalists of all stripes (who demand a strictly literal interpretation of their sacred texts) would have a problem with it. I've seen an estimate that 60% of Christian believers in the U.S. are fundamentalists/evangelicals, but only 10% worldwide. So what are fundamentalists likely to do if the government announces tomorrow that it's in contact with aliens?

Say that the phenomenon represents delusions induced by demons to try and destroy the faith of the faithful.
Say that the government is lying, that no such contact has taken place (if they can fake a moon landing...)
Say that these creatures don't really have souls, that they're not part of the covenant with God.
Come up with an explanation based on clever proof texting from their sacred books.

Remember, fundamentalists have been fighting Darwinism for over a century and a half and still hold to their literalist beliefs. The claim that society would collapse in the face of disclosure and people would panic is a misunderstanding of the nature of religious belief -- or wishful thinking on the part of atheists who view all believers as knuckle draggers. It may be that the government has bought into this mistaken view of things and has been suppressing things. But if so, the government is wrong.

Regarding withholding information - remember Tabby's Star? The possibility that it represented a massive engineering project by an alien civilization was all over the media (it turns out it's probably not). Or the oddly shaped extrasolar asteroid Oumuamua which visited our solar system briefly - and was observed for a while to see if it was sending out any radio signals? Neither of those were suppressed by the government - and neither were any of the other unsolved observational mysteries like the Wow! signal. If on the other hand aliens visited us and contacted our government, I could see that being withheld for strategic reasons. But there's no reason to believe from the evidence that scientists would keep their pie holes shut if they discovered something this big (which would make them shoo-ins for every prize on the planet and guaranteed life tenure).

Last edited by Vasily; 05-01-2018 at 04:08 PM..
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Old 05-01-2018, 04:41 PM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
13,139 posts, read 22,722,876 times
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Default Are we from Mars?

No... no, we're not. Glad I could settle this argument for y'all.
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Old 05-01-2018, 05:04 PM
 
Location: Falls Church, Fairfax County
5,162 posts, read 4,459,473 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fisheye View Post
Our US government is an easy target and they collect tax money from us (great reason to question their actions).
Question their actions, fair enough....but to outright make up lies? Well that is total BS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fisheye View Post
When it comes to out-of-world coverups; you would think one of the other major powers would release information about life on Mars or any other world. We still have a space race going on; no matter how much we agree or disagree. Finding signs of life on Mars or any other planet would be major news and win accolades for any nation that made that discovery. It would be a 'smell me' like the first Russian Sputnik or our landing on the moon. I cannot picture politicians leaving the information for opponents to use!
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Old 05-02-2018, 02:11 AM
 
Location: UK
6,901 posts, read 6,804,741 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vasily
I answered the issue of Martian winds at some length months ago in a post here, including calculations. QUoting rover scientist Jim Bell:
And I also posted at length some months ago. I do not know how you can support and believe NASA scientist's opinion without questioning their motivation and critically examining their presented information. It appears all is not what they tell us.

Source - Mars Rover "Cleaning Event"
Space.com article - The Amazing self-cleaning rover
Quote:
Although dust storms can quickly choke the whole planet, strong winds and helpful dust devils have countered the impact of sun-blocking layers of dust settling on the solar-powered robots. Most recently, Opportunity has seen a surge in energy after a "cleaning event" in March, resulting in a power boost of 70 percent when compared with power levels at the start of this year.

And now mission scientists have released a self-portrait photo of the Mars rover. When compared with the dust coverage at its worst, the difference is nothing short of dramatic.
Emily Lakdawalla Blog - The Planetary Society

Link to Rense
Quote:
The remarkable cleaning occurred in spurts during the Martian night. The team managing the rover reports that on at least four occasions over a six-month period, the rover's power output suddenly increased by up to 5% in a single night.

Some suggested that the Martian winds might have swept the dust off the panels. Others wondered if frost could have caused the dust to clump, exposing more of the panels. And some even suggested that the tilting of the rover while climbing hills might have caused a portion of the dust to drop off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vasily
Regarding dust devils - Martian dust (which is what you see blowing around) is very fine - around 30 micrometers in size. Martian spherules (aka "blueberries") are somewhere around 3 millimeters in diameter. There are 1000 micrometers in a millimeter, which means a Martian spherule is a hundred times larger than a particle of dust in a sandstorm. That's why the Martian dust devils can blow dust around but not spherules. This isn't exactly rocket science.
Unfortunately your information does not appear to work out in practice. These Martian dust devils are reported by NASA to be scouring the ground and making tracks behind them. Taken with the rover cleaning events above, this makes NASA information rather questionable.

Either the wind has dust-devil strength enough to scour the ground and clean off the rover's solar panels, OR it doesn't. In spite of NASA telling us both sides of the story at different times, IT CANNOT DO BOTH - unless it obeys the law of "wishful thinking" to which you appear to subscribe.

===============

I dont care what government we are talking about, when it comes to advanced technology then they all want it - because it gives them the advantage over others. Since we are all jockeying for position in this sick corrupted world, each country has to try to find technology which potentially destroys others or protects itself.

Last edited by ocpaul20; 05-02-2018 at 02:30 AM..
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Old 05-02-2018, 07:29 AM
 
Location: Swiftwater, PA
18,755 posts, read 17,992,748 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocpaul20 View Post
Either the wind has dust-devil strength enough to scour the ground and clean off the rover's solar panels, OR it doesn't. In spie of NASA telling us both sides of the story at different times, IT CANNOT DO BOTH - unless it obeys the law of "wishful thinking" to which you appear to subscribe.
Do you own a leaf blower? They work great and can do many jobs; but not all. If you try to use them to remove spider webs they do not work. Dry loose leaves work and wet clumped leaves do not work. There are many variables when using a tool that produces 120+ mph wind. The direction/angle you hold the leaf blower, the distance from the objects you want to move, moisture content, or the bonding of the 'dust' or leaves - it all plays a roll on how effective the blower works.

NASA has nobody on Mars taking measurements of the Martian winds - just instruments that might not 'see' all the variables. They can only speculate on their own experiences and known science. Is that reason to hold it against them? Their reasoning is considerably more logical than Martian rabbits jumping on the solar panels and cleaning the dust off.
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Old 05-02-2018, 09:44 AM
 
Location: Greenville, SC
6,219 posts, read 5,903,809 times
Reputation: 12160
Quote:
Originally Posted by ocpaul20 View Post
And I also posted at length some months ago. I do not know how you can support and believe NASA scientist's opinion without questioning their motivation and critically examining their presented information. It appears all is not what they tell us.

Source - Mars Rover "Cleaning Event"
Space.com article - The Amazing self-cleaning rover

Emily Lakdawalla Blog - The Planetary Society

Link to Rense
There's absolutely nothing in any of the links you posted that suggests "all is not what they tell us". The stuff on the solar panels is fine dust (see my comments), not rocks - there are plenty of dust devils on Mars (that was the only surprise) and you get electrostatic charges generated by dust devils that as the Rense article points out could aid in the removal of the dust. That's not the same as moving spherules around - as you often do when someone presents specific and objective evidence you're wrong, you're changing the subject which was your claim about the spherules (aka "blueberries").

Quote:
Unfortunately your information does not appear to work out in practice. These Martian dust devils are reported by NASA to be scouring the ground and making tracks behind them. Taken with the rover cleaning events above, this makes NASA information rather questionable.

Either the wind has dust-devil strength enough to scour the ground and clean off the rover's solar panels, OR it doesn't. In spite of NASA telling us both sides of the story at different times, IT CANNOT DO BOTH - unless it obeys the law of "wishful thinking" to which you appear to subscribe.
I have no idea what you're talking about. I suspect you're misunderstanding the articles you linked to. They do NOT support whatever it is you're claiming about supposed NASA "hiding" of information - or your original claim about "blueberries", which you seem to have forgotten. You want to see a conspiracy behind every Martian bush, but there's no there there.
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Old 05-02-2018, 10:34 AM
 
28,122 posts, read 12,443,956 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Guard View Post
I believe so.

I am not sure that anything impressive came out of those files, nothing that really changed anything concrete. I am really not surprised that people would hold things like this secret for whatever reason. It certainly is not on the same level of sentient aliens visiting earth. Also the Kennedy assassination was a US show. For sentient alien life we are talking about all governments and all governments do not have the same agenda.

Proof? Would YOU panic or is this just a way to put out that you are better than everyone else?

Again, do you have any proof of this? It is easy to accuse "they" without proof or anything to support your claim. I mean you are just self validating what you say as fact.

In the case of a big asteroid it would not only be various governments but it would be amateur astronomers as well. All these theories seem to be less about truth and more about being smarter than everyone else, but without proof or peer review. I think this is a little disingenuous to say the least. I do not mind discussing facts, what I do not think should be brought up is opinion disguised as fact.
Well, apparently the JFK files they were going to declassify, are not going to be released now as they said it would present serious national security issues, so that tells me, it must be something significant, what that could be is beyond me though, considering how long ago it was, i cannot imagine anything being THAT relevant today, but I guess it is.

I think you misunderstood me, I most certainly WOULD panic if alien life announcement was made by Govt, Id like to think I wouldnt, but I know I would.

Regarding other countries and their involvement in this, I believe the alien/UFO thing is such an important secret, ALL govts are on the same page when it comes to withholding it from the public, some govts probably know more than others, but I do believe they all know the basics. Not that long ago, the former Canadian prime minister made some comments about this, and the concerted effort to maintain the secret. I can try to find that interview and post it.

Also consider back in the early 90s, then National Security advisor, Dick DaMato investigated into UFO secrecy and found a black arm (deep state) that was responsible for maintaining this secret. There are numerous articles and documents pertaining to this. and also more recently (dec 2017) when Harry Reid was talking about this, he basically said the same thing others have said, there IS a secret and there is a 'party' responsible for maintaining it.
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