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Old 08-14-2018, 03:45 PM
 
Location: Greenville, SC
5,832 posts, read 4,534,261 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KaraZetterberg153 View Post
@Vasily: Well of course, an entity with the name "Christian Post" is going to say that 1/3 of scientists believe in God but I think that characterization is biased. Dawkins says otherwise. I think it's a very tiny percentage.
I could also say of course Dawkins thinks otherwise - he has his own agenda.

The research in question comes from Pew Research, not from the "Christian Post":

Scientists and Belief | Pew Research Center

Dawkins is in other words incorrect.

Quote:
If Kenneth Miller defends evolution against creationist attacks, that supports my side of the argument.
The point of mentioning Kenneth Miller is: he's an evolutionist and a Roman Catholic. I don't see how that supports your side of the argument, which apparently is: if some aspects of memory are inheritable, there is no God and no afterlife. How so, since we're only starting to understand what consciousness is, and I for one don't believe it's reducible to a side of the brain's activities?
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Old 08-17-2018, 01:19 PM
 
Location: The Commonwealth of Virginia
1,167 posts, read 586,937 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasily View Post
....How so, since we're only starting to understand what consciousness is, and I for one don't believe it's reducible to a side of the brain's activities?
Based on what?

--
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Old 08-17-2018, 04:20 PM
 
Location: Greenville, SC
5,832 posts, read 4,534,261 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill790 View Post
Based on what?
The important part of the last sentence is "we're only starting to understand what consciousness is". Getting into the reasons why I don't personally subscribe to epiphenomenalism is outside the scope of this thread.
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Old 08-17-2018, 09:54 PM
 
Location: PRC
4,582 posts, read 4,063,627 times
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Quote:
I'm wondering if contemporary research in genetics offers some explanations to the persistent human belief in reincarnation, or more fundamentally, some sort of existence beyond death. The following two brief articles support the notion of genetic memory:

'Memories' pass between generations
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-25156510you

Phobias may be memories passed down in genes from ancestors
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/sci...ancestors.html
I thought the idea of genetic memory was something I came up with, but it's obviously not original with me.

Of course, we still have the notion of separate planes of existence, co-equal in time.
What is the difference between a 'notion' and a 'belief'? Nothing as far as I can tell - except semantics and of course science-types like to use scientific language and spiritual-types like to use other words and phrases.

Has anyone really decided that phobias are not generated in THIS life? Phobias could also be baggage from past lives too. There is hypnosis evidence for those past lives and evidence for reincarnation has been well documented in many civilisations. It might be difficult to distinguish scientifically between genetic memory and past lives though.

If there are 'other dimensions' as science is starting to discover then there is probably some argument towards a surviving consciousness, 'soul' or whatever you choose to call it. However, whatever you call surviving consciousness, I personally dont think genetic memory goes far enough to explain what we see, experience, and documented by many people throughout history across the world.

It will be difficult for science to remove the DNA aspect of a living organism and unless they can do that, the idea is nothing more than a belief or as they like to call them a hypothesis, which cannot be tested.

I also want to point out that it appears we are energetic beings so it is quite possible that the DNA holds an energetic 'template' which gets passed on and it is not the physical DNA structure itself but the energy which holds the design structure or blueprint of the organism.
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Old 08-18-2018, 11:08 AM
 
Location: The Commonwealth of Virginia
1,167 posts, read 586,937 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasily View Post
The important part of the last sentence is "we're only starting to understand what consciousness is". Getting into the reasons why I don't personally subscribe to epiphenomenalism is outside the scope of this thread.
The scope of the thread is what we make it, and, you're the one who brought it up. I'm curious. While I would like to believe that consciousness continues after death (the idea of that my consciousness will wink out like a light when I die is pretty spooky to me), I can't believe it because I want to believe it.

Galenwoof and Nozferatoo(sp?) have written eloquently in previous threads on the subject. Galenwoof thinks that because we don't have a solid theory of what consciousness is, we can't really know what happens to consciousness when we die. Noz thinks there is no evidence to suggest that consciousness continues after death; if the brain is the seat of consciousness, which seems likely, and the brain dies, then our consciousness dies with it (I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm off).

I want to believe that consciousness continues after death. So I'm always looking for different opinions on the subject. If you're uncomfortable with posting, you can DM me.

--
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Old 08-18-2018, 02:28 PM
 
Location: Greenville, SC
5,832 posts, read 4,534,261 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill790 View Post
The scope of the thread is what we make it, and, you're the one who brought it up. I'm curious. While I would like to believe that consciousness continues after death (the idea of that my consciousness will wink out like a light when I die is pretty spooky to me), I can't believe it because I want to believe it.

Galenwoof and Nozferatoo(sp?) have written eloquently in previous threads on the subject. Galenwoof thinks that because we don't have a solid theory of what consciousness is, we can't really know what happens to consciousness when we die. Noz thinks there is no evidence to suggest that consciousness continues after death; if the brain is the seat of consciousness, which seems likely, and the brain dies, then our consciousness dies with it (I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm off).

I want to believe that consciousness continues after death. So I'm always looking for different opinions on the subject. If you're uncomfortable with posting, you can DM me.
OK, then -- most of my reading on consciousness has been in the writings of (or writings about) Antonio Damasio, Roger Penrose, John Searle, and Guilio Tononi. Bottom line is, there's a lot of discussion and disagreement on the nature of consciousness right now; I think we're far from an answer. I tend to side with the mysterians who hold that some of the biggest questions - like the nature of consciousness - may not be answerable at all. This is a nice summary of Tononi's integrated information theory that also touches on a couple of the other current figures struggling with consciousness:

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com...consciousness/

Here's a discussion of Damasio's theory of consciousness:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damasi..._consciousness

Roger Penrose discussing *his* theory of consciousness:

Roger Penrose Discusses Consciousness

A discussion of John Searle's view of consciousness:

https://www.quora.com/What-is-John-S...-consciousness

From Scholarpedia:

Quote:
At present, however, no single model of consciousness appears sufficient to account fully for the multidimensional properties of conscious experience. Moreover, although some of these models have gained prominence, none has yet been accepted as definitive, or even as a foundation upon which to build a definitive model.
(source)

I can't get into my personal beliefs without getting into religion, and that's my main reason for hesitating. I'm Eastern Orthodox. For me, it's a matter of faith - but so is subscribing to consciousness being a meaningless side effect of the brain's operation, or to any of the above.

We believe being human requires a combination of both our consciousness and our physicality. A fully aware human requires flesh and bones, and some sort of temporal flow to exist and become -- the notion of our existing outside time and space in some disembodied fashion doesn't make much sense because that's not our nature.

After death, it's been said in my tradition that our experience of our existence is like a vivid and realistic dream; we don't have a body, but there is an awareness, maybe including interaction with others on that "plane". But the only person who was there and back again - Lazarus - didn't have anything to say about the experience. Some Orthodox believe we hang around after death visiting the places we know from life, then go through a sort of set of tests based on our shortcomings in life (the so called aerial tollhouses). As I understand it, that's why Orthodox have prayers during the 40 day period following a death - the soul is starting on its journey. The promise of the resurrection is that everything will be remade at the end of time (somehow) and we will be a part of that new existence, with new bodies. Because we were made/evolved to be embodied, unlike the immortal angels and demons who we call the "bodiless powers", and we are granted immortality through our being the adopted children of the Creator, not by virtue of our created nature.
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Old 08-18-2018, 06:17 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles
6,973 posts, read 8,683,858 times
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I would suggest that everyone posting in this thread, from it's beginning to the present, answer one question.
Who would you rather believe, a scientist that dabbles in speculation, or beings that actually live life's experiences, and know the facts, not speculating what the facts are?
I have more to add, but wait on your answers first.

Bob.
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Old 08-20-2018, 09:31 AM
 
Location: The Commonwealth of Virginia
1,167 posts, read 586,937 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CALGUY View Post
...Who would you rather believe, a scientist that dabbles in speculation, or beings that actually live life's experiences, and know the facts, not speculating what the facts are?
What beings? What facts?

--
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Old 08-20-2018, 01:19 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles
6,973 posts, read 8,683,858 times
Reputation: 8744
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill790 View Post
What beings? What facts?

--
Spirits, and they have explained all the facts pertaining to the human existence.
You don't have to believe me, but if you download the free edition of "the spirit's book", you will learn everything the spirits know, and learn some valuable lessons about the human existence along the way.


Bob.
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Old 08-23-2018, 01:44 PM
 
Location: Posting from my space yacht.
8,462 posts, read 3,830,188 times
Reputation: 15284
Quote:
Originally Posted by KaraZetterberg153 View Post
What I'm after, and probably not explaining it very well, is whether the whole gamut of supernatural beliefs may be superseded by contemporary science, such as DNA studies which examine how living humans may retain genetic memories of their antecedents.

Why is it important to you that this be so?
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