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Old 01-05-2020, 06:41 AM
 
Location: The Driftless Area, WI
3,230 posts, read 1,264,107 times
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Elijah--2 Kings 2: 10,11-- [SIZE=2]10 [/SIZE]So he said, “You have asked a hard thing. Nevertheless, if you see me when I am taken from you, it shall be so for you; but if not, it shall not be so.” [SIZE=2]11 [/SIZE]Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.




Christ--Acts 1: 9-11-- [SIZE=2]9 [/SIZE]Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. [SIZE=2]10 [/SIZE]And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, [SIZE=2]11 [/SIZE]who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”


Romulus--Livy, The History of Rome 1:16 When these deathless deeds had been done, as the king was holding a muster in the Campus Martius, near the swamp of Capra, for the purpose of reviewing the army, suddenly a storm came up, with loud claps of thunder, and enveloped him in a cloud so thick as to hide him from the sight of the assembly; and from that moment Romulus was no more on earth.


??? Easy enough to dismiss the first two accounts as religious propaganda to impress the faithful, but the story of Romulus doesn't seem to have any such value. Livy wrote the history of Rome from its founding (~750 BC) to his present time (~10 BC). He used traditional stories and ancient authors, lost to us now but frequently mentioned in his text, as sources. He often relays alternative accounts of events and suggests which are more likely, but doesn't insist on which of the alternatives are correct (ie- it's a well thought out & researched, unbiased history, as far as we can tell.)


Any other examples?
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Old 01-05-2020, 07:11 AM
 
Location: Swiftwater, PA
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While Europe, including Italy, do not have frequent tornadoes; they do happen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...nado_outbreaks. Picture ancient times and all of a sudden you witnesses somebody taken into the sky or you see them and then they disappear after the storm. How do you explain that; especially if the body is never recovered?
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Old 01-05-2020, 10:56 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fisheye View Post
While Europe, including Italy, do not have frequent tornadoes; they do happen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...nado_outbreaks. Picture ancient times and all of a sudden you witnesses somebody taken into the sky or you see them and then they disappear after the storm. How do you explain that; especially if the body is never recovered?
The story claims he was enveloped in a thick dark cloud and he could not be seen after that...when a tornado picks a person up and has the power to lift them into the clouds, it woudnt fit the description of the story.


Ive seen a few Youtube videos of tornadoes picking heavy items up, and they could always be seen swirling within the tornado.
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Old 01-05-2020, 11:14 AM
 
Location: Swiftwater, PA
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Originally Posted by rstevens62 View Post
The story claims he was enveloped in a thick dark cloud and he could not be seen after that...when a tornado picks a person up and has the power to lift them into the clouds, it woudnt fit the description of the story.


Ive seen a few Youtube videos of tornadoes picking heavy items up, and they could always be seen swirling within the tornado.
And how do we know what kind of storm? It could have been a sandstorm and he wandered off and got lost to be never found. Many of these old accounts were not written down at the time they happened. Many years would go by before somebody actually recorded the event and that from memories of the passed down accounts. It would never hold any weight in a modern trial today.

As far as seeing everything a tornado picks up it is highly unlikely. Some debris is thrown out before it makes it to the side you are watching. Some tornadoes have more dust and dirt and are not that transparent. Even with the YouTube videos of cows in tornadoes I would seriously doubt that we saw all the cows that were moved or killed by the tornadic winds.
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Old 01-05-2020, 03:13 PM
 
Location: The Driftless Area, WI
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Ancient writers use a very succinct style. "Publishing" meant only a few copies we produced by scribes and read aloud in public, so we often don't get very detailed, embellished accounts.


But this event was a review of the troops on the Campus Martius, a small area only a few hundred yds in either direction and very marshy-- so there was no opportunity for dust. The "cloud" must have been either a natural water vapor cloud (fog) or we can fantasize engine exhaust-- and it apparently only involved Romulus, not any others.


The Latin language itself is very compact. Livy's actual phrase is a bit curious to our modern eyes & ears: "...nec deinde in terris Romulus fuit."--"nor from there on the lands was Romulus." A more liberal translation :--"and thereafter Romulus was not on Earth."


Read the full chapter Titus Livius (Livy), The History of Rome, Book 1, chapter 16 wherein Livy relates that at first some thought it was a whirlwind (tornado) while others thought some senators had killed him and chopped him up into pieces (how is it they were able to decide on such an action & accomplish it in such a short period of time, taking advantage, on the spur of the moment, of an unpredicted tornado?)… and when the clouds cleared only Romulus was gone and his chair was left untouched?


It's curious that at least three such stories about three different people, all originally passed down by oral tradition for yrs before they were finally committed to paper, exist telling us about people who suddenly disappeared in clouds, thunder and bright lights. (Beam me aboard, Scotty.)


I personally don't believe this planet has been visited by extraterrestrials. That opinion is based mainly on the extremely low probability that we could even be found by aliens-- not a disbelief in the existence of them....but these myths sure make ya wonder.
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Old 01-05-2020, 05:29 PM
 
Location: Swiftwater, PA
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When an event happens today and people are immediately asked to describe what they just saw; they have a hard time. In ancient times they had no smartphones to record the events. They also had no concept of the cataclysmic forces that altered their world. There is evidence that they turned to human sacrifice after many of those events. They used word of mouth until they could finally write down what they thought they saw. Or they recorded events told by others many years later.

Because they could not fly or reach the stars and other celestial bodies; they imagined what was there. Of course many thought our world was flat or the center of the universe. We do not look at their writings and believe that they were telling the truth because so many believed the same. Of course we know better now.

The one thing that we think we know, that we believe separates humans from animals, is that we have an imagination. Each one of us can walk away with our own interpretation of what we just witnessed - sometimes based on our preconceived ideas. That does not make it the 'truth'.
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Old 01-05-2020, 09:44 PM
 
13,350 posts, read 3,523,564 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fisheye View Post
When an event happens today and people are immediately asked to describe what they just saw; they have a hard time. In ancient times they had no smartphones to record the events. They also had no concept of the cataclysmic forces that altered their world. There is evidence that they turned to human sacrifice after many of those events. They used word of mouth until they could finally write down what they thought they saw. Or they recorded events told by others many years later.

Because they could not fly or reach the stars and other celestial bodies; they imagined what was there. Of course many thought our world was flat or the center of the universe. We do not look at their writings and believe that they were telling the truth because so many believed the same. Of course we know better now.

The one thing that we think we know, that we believe separates humans from animals, is that we have an imagination. Each one of us can walk away with our own interpretation of what we just witnessed - sometimes based on our preconceived ideas. That does not make it the 'truth'.
Some of those ancient civilizations knew quite a bit about space and how the planets moved. I believe there was some that even knew about distant planets, it does make you wonder how they acquired this knowledge.


Maybe the 'gods' they were sacrificing to...were actually real?
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Old 01-05-2020, 11:19 PM
 
Location: Swiftwater, PA
15,331 posts, read 12,405,440 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens62 View Post
Some of those ancient civilizations knew quite a bit about space and how the planets moved. I believe there was some that even knew about distant planets, it does make you wonder how they acquired this knowledge.


Maybe the 'gods' they were sacrificing to...were actually real?
We still have the same natural disasters today and we know that it will not help to sacrifice our virgins!

Many of our ancient predecessors did have an idea of how it all worked; but many did not. As humans we can think and we can use our imaginations. We took two steps forward and then three backwards when we plunged into the dark ages.

I just give humanity a lot of credit. I do not think there was any interference; I think sometimes we actually got it right and many times we got it wrong. To the best of my knowledge none of our ancient astronomers had any comprehension about the vastness of space. It is just that they had not yet invented the tools necessary to do the calculations.
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Old 01-06-2020, 02:30 AM
 
Location: The Driftless Area, WI
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You make valid points, Fisheye. We must look at these stories and take them with a grain of salt. Look how the story of the benevolent St Nicholas has morphed into the story of Santa Claus with all the details of the North Pole, elves, flying sleighs, reindeer and even the red nosed Rudolph added in thru the yrs.


It would be natural for an ancient with no concept of human flight or inhabitable planets (they described the planets as "wandering stars") to describe an alien vehicle as a "chariot"- something they had knowledge of- and it's hot exhaust as "fire".:...But does anyone really think an advanced alien technology would be traveling light-year distances in a conveyance that had to rely on a combustible, quickly depleted fuel & oxidation for its power? Highly unlikely.


But it still makes you wonder.
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Old 01-06-2020, 06:23 AM
 
Location: Falls Church, Fairfax County
5,002 posts, read 3,138,436 times
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Chariots of Fire and the rest of the Ancient Aliens phenomena are a pretty sketchy thing to build a belief system in since they leave out and ignore anything that does not fit their narrative.



Ancient Aliens Debunked does a good job pointing out a lot of the nonsense but unfortunately it is flawed because at parts it turns into political propaganda in my opinion.
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