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Old 02-15-2021, 12:17 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fisheye View Post
So why if a bird was suspected of cutting off one nose, are they not suspected of eating eyes and tongues? It is not a good reason to suspect paranormal.

Because the injuries/damage to the bodies have to look CONSISTENT with the kind of damage that birds/animals cause. In case of Krivonishenko, the kind of damage that has been caused to the tip of his nose looked consistent with the kind of damage that birds can cause.

The rest of the damages to other bodies were NOT consistent with those caused by wild animals.
( That's what the forensic autopsies are for.)



( I suspect you think that since it all happened somewhere in the "boonies," no one knew exactly what was going on, and people were assuming all kind of things, without solid knowledge of what is what.)
This can't be further away from truth, because Sverdlovsk region happened to be one of the utmost important to Moscow, for the amount of scientific research conducted there/factories with restricted access ( if you know what I mean), tests of the newest weaponry and so on.

So it's one of the reasons why there were plenty of specialists in the area of different kinds, pathologists and criminalists including.

Therefore the regional government was highly involved in the case, and then ultimately - Moscow. (Think about the "chain of command," as in the army.)
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Old 02-15-2021, 11:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fisheye View Post
So why if a bird was suspected of cutting off one nose, are they not suspected of eating eyes and tongues? It is not a good reason to suspect paranormal.
If you go back and read the details in the descriptive post above, it says the eyeballs were 'removed', but the eyeball shell was left behind...Birds would just eat away at everything, they wouldnt leave other soft meat behind...plus, why would birds only do this to one body?
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Old 02-16-2021, 01:47 AM
 
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens62 View Post
If you go back and read the details in the descriptive post above, it says the eyeballs were 'removed', but the eyeball shell was left behind...Birds would just eat away at everything, they wouldnt leave other soft meat behind...plus, why would birds only do this to one body?
That is not what was said. What was said was that the eyeballs were removed and that the eyeball shells were not left behind.
Quote:
"During an external examination of the body, Vozrozhdenny discovered the following injuries (see the corresponding anatomical diagram):
- the absence of soft tissues in the region of the brow ridges, nose bridge, eye sockets and left temporomandibular region.
- in the area of ​​the left parietal bone, a soft tissue defect measuring 4.0 * 4.0 cm, the bottom of which is the exposed parietal bone (pos. 7);
- eyeballs are absent (pos. 1). The Act does not indicate the reason for their disappearance. According to the meaning of the phrase, it can be concluded that the eyeballs were not crushed, because in this case the sclera (the shell of the eyeball) would remain, which the expert could not fail to notice. Therefore, complete removal of both eyes has taken place;
- the cartilage of the nose is flattened (but the bones of the dorsum of the nose are intact) (pos. 2).
Quite a strange damage, the explanation for which is not as easy to find as it might seem at first glance. The fact is that the human nose is a rather fragile structure and its back breaks even when a slight load is applied, and it breaks with a shift, skew, so that it is not possible to restore the shape of the nose even with timely and qualified treatment.
Most of all, the damage described in Lyudmila Dubinina's case, corresponds to a blow to the tip of the nose from the side; ;
- there are no soft tissues of the upper lip on the right with exposure of the upper jaw and teeth;
- there is no tongue in the mouth. During an internal examination, the pathologist ( Vozrozhdenny) will clarify this point as follows: "The diaphragm of the mouth and tongue is absent. The upper edge of the hyoid bone is exposed."

Last edited by 303Guy; 02-16-2021 at 01:58 AM..
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Old 02-16-2021, 02:14 AM
 
Location: Swiftwater, PA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens62 View Post
If you go back and read the details in the descriptive post above, it says the eyeballs were 'removed', but the eyeball shell was left behind...Birds would just eat away at everything, they wouldnt leave other soft meat behind...plus, why would birds only do this to one body?
I just feel that many prematurely turn to paranormal answers when natural answers are staring you in the face.

Sometimes we get hung up on the meaning of a phrase or the translation into our native language. You really need good autopsy pictures to clarify the statements. But, for the sake of the surviving relatives, they are not usually open to the public.
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Old 02-16-2021, 12:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
That is not what was said. What was said was that the eyeballs were removed and that the eyeball shells were not left behind.

Yes, thank you.

So I'll proceed with the autopsy of the next person, found in the ravine ( along with Dubinina.)
Now this particular person I think plays an important role in the whole expedition ( I'll explain later why,) and lately during the new "researches," questions about his persona/identity is all the rage I've noticed.
I can understand why, but I'll touch on it later. So first - the autopsy of Semyon Zolotaryev ( if that's even his real name.)

This is still from Rakitin's book, but I have the original autopsy file for comparison on the other site, so it's all good. ( I'll put my own comments next to author's in italic and in parenthesis, in order to avoid any confusion.)

"b) Zolotarev Semyon Alekseevich, according to the Forensic Medical Examination Act, was dressed so well that we are unlikely to be mistaken, assuming that we found him in almost the same clothes in which he made the ski trip. In his wardrobe, only mittens and storm jacket were missing (all these hikers storm jackets as you know, were found later in the tent - they left them behind). ("Storm jacket" is a heavier kind of wind-breakers, made from the heavy canvas.)
It deserves special mention that Semyon Zolotarev was the only member of the deceased group who, in the face of death, did not part with the camera. And here it is necessary to make an important clarification: the investigation believed that the "Dyatlovites" had at their disposal 4 cameras belonging to the members of the group - Igor Dyatlov, Georgy Krivonischenko, Rustem Slobodin and, finally, Semyon Zolotarev.

All this photographic equipment was found in the tent, the investigation took care of establishing its belonging, removing photographic films and processing them, thanks to which we got a unique opportunity to look at the tragic hike through the eyes of the owners of the cameras (we still have to return to the analysis of photographs taken by the participants of the hike in a special chapter). And in May, on the corpse of Zolotarev, another - the fifth camera was unexpectedly found.

Yuri Yudin (the 10th hiker, who was left behind in the village, since he didn't feel well) did not know anything about its existence and, of course, did not report anything to the investigation ...

To exclude any ambiguity, we emphasize that Yudin confidently identified one of the cameras found in the tent as belonging to Zolotarev, which was returned to his mother in April 1959.
Concluding the conversation about the camera, we note that now there is no clarity in the origin of this camera, it is not known whether there was a photographic film inside it and if "yes", then how many frames were taken. (From what I saw in original materials, the film was still there, but it was damaged by water.)

But it would hardly be a mistake to assume that Semyon Zolotarev, for some reason, treasured this thing very much. (Yes!)

During the autopsy, the forensic expert Vozrozhdenny recorded the following injuries of the deceased (see the corresponding diagram):
- lack of eyeballs (item 1);
- in the parietal region on the right, a soft tissue defect with an area of ​​8.0 * 6.0 cm with exposure of the parietal bone (pos. 4);
- in the area of ​​the eyes and superciliary arches - a soft tissue defect of a rounded shape measuring 7.0 * 6.0 cm with thinned edges and "exposure of the bones of the facial skull" (pos. 2);
- fractures of the ribs 2,3,4,5 and 6 on the right along the "peri-thoracic and mid-axillary" lines with hemorrhage into the adjacent intercostal muscles (pos. 3).
In the pleural cavities of the deceased there was about 1 liter of dark blood, which indicated the intravital development of hemothorax (filling the pleural cavity with blood, due to which the lung loses its ability to fully expand on inhalation. This phenomenon is deadly, because it leads to rapid suffocation of the victim. In a clinical setting, to combat hemothorax, it is required to puncture the pleural cavity, sometimes repeatedly.
Out in the field, in the absence of special skills and tools, the ingress of such a volume of blood into the pleural cavity means 100% death of the victim.)
The cause of the described phenomenon could be rib fractures. It must be said that although each of the five broken ribs had two fractures, the actual number of fractures could only be established by X-ray examination of the corpse. The fact is that when the ribs are broken, small bone fragments of irregular shape with sharp edges are formed in several places, and the ribs themselves have irregularities and notches in the places of fracture. In fact, on the right side of Zolotarev's chest, we see a porridge (a mash) of bones and flesh torn by them. The ribs have lost their ability to keep their shape and thus to protect the internal organs from external traumatic influences of even the most insignificant force.
We would like to emphasize that a person with a similar injury is absolutely helpless without the support of others; his right hand is "disabled"; he is not even able to raise it, because the muscles responsible for this movement are attached to the upper ribs.
Zolotarev, after injury, had to experience severe pain. To stay alive for any length of time, he had to be in absolute peace. A single awkward movement not would only deprive him of consciousness, but would kill him in the literal sense of the word. He could only be saved from death due to the development of hemothorax by urgent surgical care, which no one could provide him in the field.
Of course, everything said about Semyon Zolotarev's hemothorax with good reason can be attributed to Lyudmila Dubinina as well, whose injury was not only similar, but even more destructive for the body.
In addition to hemothorax, the examination also revealed traces of acute pulmonary edema, similar to that described by Doroshenko and Dubinina.

But like in case with Lyudmila,( Dubinina) this process did not go far. The lumen of the larynx and bronchi remained free of foam, which means that the edema began to develop in the last minutes of life, possibly already in the agonal state.

The cause of the edema was the disruption of the central nervous system during the process of dying...
As in the case of Lyudmila Dubinina, the Vozrozhdenny forensic scientist did not check the bones of the deceased for fragility, apparently considering it unnecessary. (After all they were all young healthy people.)

The expert did not connect the death of Semyon Zolotarev with hypothermia. According to Boris Alekseevich,( Vozrozhdenyy) the death of the latter was violent and was caused by multiple fractures of the ribs and caused by this profuse internal bleeding (thereby hemothorax, which was mentioned above).
The expert considered the damage to the skin on the back of the head to be a consequence of posthumous rotting of the flesh, and in this, most likely, he is right. But it should be noted that the cause of the described "soft tissue defect" of a significant size could be a smaller intravital wound. Based on the fact that the lung tissue was preserved, Vozrozhdenny determined the duration of the stay of the corpse in the water no more than 15 days - this estimate applied to all four bodies found in the ravine.
The minimum score - 6 days - was determined based on the degree of maceration development (with the removal of a layer of skin, hair and nail plates). So the bodies of Dubinina, Zolotarev, Thibault-Brignol and Kolevatov were in the water from 6 to 15 days."


Murders



I'll skip for now the description of the autopsies of the other two hikers found in the ravine, to bring this particular conclusion from Rakitin's book, that corresponds to the thoughts of the investigator of this case as well;



"Concluding the description and analysis of the injuries inflicted on the deceased members of Igor Dyatlov's group, let us summarize some of the results.
1) The force, the impact of which caused the death of Dubinina, Zolotarev and Thibault-Brignoles, (third hiker found in ravine,) was certainly very significant;
2) In the case of Zolotarev and Dubinina, one can see the amazing uniformity of both the external force impact and the damage caused by it;
3) This force acted with high precision and selectivity. Despite the different heights and weights of Dubinina and Zolotarev, the external influence did not touch the collarbones of both, but at the same time broke the second (and underlying) ribs.
It is also surprising that the humerus remains intact. It is impossible to imagine that some unintended impact of a spontaneous nature (an avalanche, a tree that fell on the chest, an unsuccessful fall on a stone, etc.), in two cases showed such accuracy in choosing the point of application."

Last edited by erasure; 02-16-2021 at 12:21 PM..
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Old 02-16-2021, 12:11 PM
 
28,122 posts, read 12,418,621 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fisheye View Post
I just feel that many prematurely turn to paranormal answers when natural answers are staring you in the face.

Sometimes we get hung up on the meaning of a phrase or the translation into our native language. You really need good autopsy pictures to clarify the statements. But, for the sake of the surviving relatives, they are not usually open to the public.
I feel its the exact opposite.


It seems to me, despite what the topic is, you want to avoid acknowledging that 'strange or supernatural' things do indeed happen in our world, whether its Sasquatch, aliens, ghosts, dogman, etc...Im surprised you have never once (as far as Ive seen anyway), admit that the 'facts' may be something other than natural or explainable...does this sound accurate?
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Old 02-17-2021, 04:51 AM
 
Location: Swiftwater, PA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens62 View Post
I feel its the exact opposite.


It seems to me, despite what the topic is, you want to avoid acknowledging that 'strange or supernatural' things do indeed happen in our world, whether its Sasquatch, aliens, ghosts, dogman, etc...Im surprised you have never once (as far as Ive seen anyway), admit that the 'facts' may be something other than natural or explainable...does this sound accurate?
I want to see facts that stand up to scientific review and the scrutiny of the world press. I do not want to see facts that could provide financial rewards for those that make wild claims. While it is hard to see who would make money off this particular event, I am sure that somebody will try. That is how the world works today.

All of your claims and you do not have one body or captured beast. In a world, that is smaller by the day, why not?
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Old 02-17-2021, 10:20 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fisheye View Post
I just feel that many prematurely turn to paranormal answers when natural answers are staring you in the face.

Sometimes we get hung up on the meaning of a phrase or the translation into our native language. You really need good autopsy pictures to clarify the statements. But, for the sake of the surviving relatives, they are not usually open to the public.

You don't even need the autopsy pictures for that.
The pictures of their dead bodies are available on the internet. ( You won't be able to see that with Dubinina, because she was photographed with her back facing the photographers, standing on her knees, the way she was found, so you can't see her face.)
But if you look at Zolotaryev, you can clearly see what it means - the eyes are COMPLETELY missing.

You need that picture?
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Old 02-17-2021, 12:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by fisheye View Post
I want to see facts that stand up to scientific review and the scrutiny of the world press. I do not want to see facts that could provide financial rewards for those that make wild claims. While it is hard to see who would make money off this particular event, I am sure that somebody will try. That is how the world works today.

All of your claims and you do not have one body or captured beast. In a world, that is smaller by the day, why not?
The kind of proof you seek, does exist...unfortunately we, (the general public), are not privy to it.


There is a very powerful agenda at work, to keep these kinds of things hidden/secret. The best example of this is how the govt has dealt with the ufo/alien topic, it is obvious there has been an effort to keep this hidden over decades.


And I suspect, as it pertains to Sasquatch...the interests of the logging industry is the main priority.
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Old 02-17-2021, 12:30 PM
 
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You know, back in high school when I was taught COBOL and Fortran, we were taught also this little thing called garbage in, garbage out.

While I don’t think anything weird and untoward happened at this place at that time, here’s the thing — I think it would be very easy to think that this was caused by an avalanche, and then set up a computer program to prove it was done by an avalanche.

Good old-fashioned confirmation bias.
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