Alien spaceships and the speed of light (Mars, government, aliens)

[NatesDude]

Originally Posted by Tetto

Nice, you’ve got everything firmly grasped and figured out. I guess we’re done here?

Not at all . But we know that we we DO know works . We power ships and cities with physics . We enable people to argue about aliens visiting earth with physics . And we know how to send information on the spin of an electron . Think about that one for a minute . We can use the spin of one electron to send information .

And what we currently know says that sending matter of any size FTL is not possible . To base a belief in aliens zipping around on the basis of some new physics that differs radically from what we know and use today is a very flimsy base .

[NatesDude]

Originally Posted by Mark S.

To be clear: I don't believe aliens are visiting us. I don't necessarily disbelieve it either. I have yet to see any evidence that convinces me they are. But I'm willing to admit it's possible. So ... how might it be possible?

I think the most likely explanation is that more advanced civilizations have found a better way to travel rather than simply going from Point A to Point B really fast. Because you're right. Even going at the speed of light (which may not be possible), it would still take hundreds of years to traverse the stars.

So maybe more advanced civilizations have found other ways of traveling? Our own scientists are already beginning to postulate ways that might be possible.

Another possibility ...

It is possible that it is actually possible for matter to travel faster than light. We just haven't figured out how yet. Don't get me wrong. I think the current science that says this isn't possible seems sound. But it is based on what we know now. Are we really so arrogant as to think we have all the universe figured out? If the laws of the cosmos were all written out in a hundred trillion libraries, each containing a hundred trillion books of a million pages each, I'd guess we have probably made our way through the first few chapters of one book.

Most theoretical scientists today do look for other ways than FTL travel to conceptualize interstellar travel . Wormholes, hyperspace and such . Might it exist ? Sure , most anything might exist . Is there any proof this sort of travel is possible ? None now. And now is all we can go on if one chooses to be realistic . If one leaves the boundaries of realism for fantasy we might as well imagine that aliens simply move themselves around without the need of spaceships by whatever means it is that the witches and wizards do in Harry Potter . Or Q in STTNG . Not being sarcastic here, just pointing out that when we leave reality and start fantasizing there are no limits on it .

[Mark S.]

Originally Posted by NatesDude

Most theoretical scientists today do look for other ways than FTL travel to conceptualize interstellar travel . Wormholes, hyperspace and such . Might it exist ? Sure , most anything might exist . Is there any proof this sort of travel is possible ? None now. And now is all we can go on if one chooses to be realistic . If one leaves the boundaries of realism for fantasy we might as well imagine that aliens simply move themselves around without the need of spaceships by whatever means it is that the witches and wizards do in Harry Potter . Or Q in STTNG . Not being sarcastic here, just pointing out that when we leave reality and start fantasizing there are no limits on it .

Two weaknesses in your argument:

One, I think you are confusing "informed speculation" with "fantasy." We aren't speculating that aliens might be chanting, "Eye of newt, pinch of fright, take our saucer speed of light!" Even based upon our current understanding of physics, many really smart people are already starting to figure out other ways to travel besides going fast. Which leads into...

Two, you are restricting yourself to humanity's current understanding of physics. The laws of the cosmos aren't going to change in the next hundred years, but our understanding of them certainly will. We will learn new things and correct previous errant understandings. That's how science works. It's a good thing. Five hundred years ago, the best human vehicle was the sailboat. Since, we have sent human beings to the moon and probes beyond the solar system. Imagine what we might accomplish five hundred years from now. Then imagine what another civilization might have achieved if it has gone ten thousand years beyond our own understanding?

But yes, this is all speculation. Personally, I have seen ZERO evidence that aliens are visiting us. I'm just not willing to fall into the arrogance of stating I know it as a fact. We don't know it all yet.

[NatesDude]

To continue on with the thoughts here, FTL travel has more problems than just accomplishing FTL speed. There are 4 major physics hurdles, at least , to overcome.

1) Inventing the technology to travel FTL. No small thing, since the current laws of physics have to be overturned.
2) Fueling FTL travel. Physics says that at the speed of light, objects with a mass require infinite energy to move that mass. In other words, all the energy that exists in the entire universe to move one object to the speed of light . Good luck on finding that fuel source.
3) If one somehow achieved FTL speeds through normal space, it would be a death sentence for the travelers. At such speeds even impacting a particle of dust becomes catastrophic . And hitting space dust on a hundreds of trillions of miles journey is inevitable. Space is mostly empty, but not completely empty that you can travel trillions of miles in a straight line and not encounter dust at the least. The energy released by an object hitting a particle of dust at 90% the SOL has been calculated to be the equivalent of a nuclear bomb . Going off on the hull of your ship. Multiple times. How will travelers survive having nuclear bombs exploding on the hull of their ship repeatedly?
4) Another part of the death sentence would be the effects of inertia. Even if a ship were to survive the nuclear bomb on the hull somehow (but how?) , physics teaches that for every action there is an opposite reaction. The ship, having a nuclear bomb go off on its hull, weighing only a small finite amount relative to a nuclear bomb, will be thrown off course by the blast. What are the g forces inside said ship when veering at the speed of 700 million MPH or greater ? The inhabitants inside would be molecular pea soup on the wall opposite the direction the ship veered (based on the wild assumption the ship even survived the nuclear blast on the hull ) . Nothing survives. Even if one overcomes the physics that state nothing goes FTL, we will not overcome the effects of inertia. There is nothing we can do to overcome this.

So, FTL travel through normal space has to break not just one, but at least four basic laws of physics for space aliens to be visiting us here on a regular basis.

Wormholes won't be any real help . The closet black hole to us, where scientists speculate worm holes could exist , is 1500 light yrs away. So anything using that as a freeway here still has to drive the side streets for 1500 light yrs , which would again require FTL travel through normal space.

The best bet is hyperspace, but as far as we know that is pure science fiction, in the realm of Q flitting about the universe however he transports himself around.

[NatesDude]

Originally Posted by Mark S.

Two weaknesses in your argument:

One, I think you are confusing "informed speculation" with "fantasy." We aren't speculating that aliens might be chanting, "Eye of newt, pinch of fright, take our saucer speed of light!" Even based upon our current understanding of physics, many really smart people are already starting to figure out other ways to travel besides going fast. Which leads into...

Two, you are restricting yourself to humanity's current understanding of physics. The laws of the cosmos aren't going to change in the next hundred years, but our understanding of them certainly will. We will learn new things and correct previous errant understandings. That's how science works. It's a good thing. Five hundred years ago, the best human vehicle was the sailboat. Since, we have sent human beings to the moon and probes beyond the solar system. Imagine what we might accomplish five hundred years from now. Then imagine what another civilization might have achieved if it has gone ten thousand years beyond our own understanding?

But yes, this is all speculation. Personally, I have seen ZERO evidence that aliens are visiting us. I'm just not willing to fall into the arrogance of stating I know it as a fact. We don't know it all yet.

Oh, I don't claim to know it as a fact. I'm just pointing out that it violates our current understanding of physics, which works to a degree now to allow us to send info on the spin of an electron. Anything is theoretically possible if we decide our current understanding of physics is flawed, but any ideas as to how we overcome the apparent , and somewhat tested and confirmed, laws of the universe require us to believe in things we have absolutely no proof of, simply to allow us to hold on to a belief in space aliens zipping through our skies.


Is it more logical to believe that our knowledge that has been tested and is used now in the energy and information areas is bad and space aliens have developed science fiction methods for real, or that the sightings of aliens is in error somehow?

[Mark S.]

I wouldn't go so far as to state that "our current understanding of physics is flawed." But surely you have to admit: It is incomplete. We don't have all the cosmos and its laws figured out yet. It is not unreasonable to speculate that there might be civilizations out there that are centuries or even millennia beyond our own in terms of scientific understanding and technological advancement. It is sheer human arrogance to insist otherwise.

[guidoLaMoto]

Originally Posted by NatesDude

Most theoretical scientists today do look for other ways than FTL travel to conceptualize interstellar travel . Wormholes, hyperspace and such . Might it exist ? Sure , most anything might exist . Is there any proof this sort of travel is possible ? None now. And now is all we can go on if one chooses to be realistic . If one leaves the boundaries of realism for fantasy we might as well imagine that aliens simply move themselves around without the need of spaceships by whatever means it is that the witches and wizards do in Harry Potter . Or Q in STTNG . Not being sarcastic here, just pointing out that when we leave reality and start fantasizing there are no limits on it .

Several good posts here, ND...can't rep you again yet.

While there may exist other fine points of physics we haven't yet discovered, their existence still can't violate certain things we do already know, so it's highly unlikley some new, significant break thru will occur.

Worm holes, time travel and such DO exist-- but only on the quantum level. That can't be translated to the macro- level due to the immensely small probablities encountered. (Eg- nothing says two connected cylinders of gas CAN'T spontaneousl re-arrange themselvs so all the molecules are in only one cyclinder, it's just that the probabilitiies of that happening are too small to be meningful....Teletransporters ala Star Trek or time travel won't ever happen because each and every atom involved would have to be re-assembled in EXACTLY the same relation to its neighbors in a before/after event.... etc etc

Stating that there are other intelligent civilizations scattered about The univers is one of the most certain things one can say...and given the age of ours compared to the age of The Universe, there are no doubt many that are much more advanced than ours.

But, even if we allow that they have figured out the physics & engneering that they might be able to get here, How would they find us? It would be like picking out one specific grain of sand on the beach or finding a small cork floating in the Indian Ocean.

[NatesDude]

Originally Posted by Mark S.

I wouldn't go so far as to state that "our current understanding of physics is flawed." But surely you have to admit: It is incomplete. We don't have all the cosmos and its laws figured out yet. It is not unreasonable to speculate that there might be civilizations out there that are centuries or even millennia beyond our own in terms of scientific understanding and technological advancement. It is sheer human arrogance to insist otherwise.

I am not insisting there aren’t older civilizations than us out there . But as guido stated, even if our understanding is incomplete , future discoveries can’t violate what we already know, unless what we think we now know is wrong . And we have evidence from our use and applications of our knowledge now that what we think we know works .

I’m simply talking about probabilities here . What are the odds that some ancient civilization eons more advanced than us that has discovered newer understandings of physics is visiting us here regularly and doing experiments on us ?

[NatesDude]

Originally Posted by guidoLaMoto

Several good posts here, ND...can't rep you again yet.

While there may exist other fine points of physics we haven't yet discovered, their existence still can't violate certain things we do already know, so it's highly unlikley some new, significant break thru will occur.

Worm holes, time travel and such DO exist-- but only on the quantum level. That can't be translated to the macro- level due to the immensely small probablities encountered. (Eg- nothing says two connected cylinders of gas CAN'T spontaneousl re-arrange themselvs so all the molecules are in only one cyclinder, it's just that the probabilitiies of that happening are too small to be meningful....Teletransporters ala Star Trek or time travel won't ever happen because each and every atom involved would have to be re-assembled in EXACTLY the same relation to its neighbors in a before/after event.... etc etc

Stating that there are other intelligent civilizations scattered about The univers is one of the most certain things one can say...and given the age of ours compared to the age of The Universe, there are no doubt many that are much more advanced than ours.

But, even if we allow that they have figured out the physics & engneering that they might be able to get here, How would they find us? It would be like picking out one specific grain of sand on the beach or finding a small cork floating in the Indian Ocean.

Well stated .

[Mark S.]

Originally Posted by NatesDude

What are the odds that some ancient civilization eons more advanced than us that has discovered newer understandings of physics is visiting us here regularly and doing experiments on us ?

Odds are slim. Evidence is slimmer still.

But beyond all possibility? Nope.