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Old 09-20-2012, 12:35 PM
 
Location: Scotland
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BBC News - Dale Cregan charged over Greater Manchester police deaths

4 murders he has been charged with.
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Old 09-20-2012, 12:45 PM
 
Location: Yorkshire, England
5,599 posts, read 9,428,302 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kentmum View Post
I can tell you having been a teacher that this is absolutely not the case. In a school where I worked in Blackpool, the headteacher permanently excluded a burly teenager for pushing a teacher through a door. The governing body thought this too harsh a punishment, went over his head and voted to have the kid reinstated. Whereas a teacher these days would likely face a sacking for this.
Needless to say I think those are some completely fuxxed up principles at play. Sigh, why couldn't I have been born a few decades earlier...
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Old 09-20-2012, 12:59 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there.
9,086 posts, read 4,938,983 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ben86 View Post
Needless to say I think those are some completely fuxxed up principles at play. Sigh, why couldn't I have been born a few decades earlier...
YES. And I was one of the mugs who had to accept the kid back into my class and teach him afterwards.
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Old 09-20-2012, 01:27 PM
 
Location: London
1,068 posts, read 1,886,983 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kentmum View Post
Could not agree more.
While there are many great things about America, the one thing I will never be comfortable with is the attitude here towards gun laws and gun violence.
In the month after I moved here there was a shoot out very close to where I live. A gang opened fire on some guys standing about outside a store just after dark. In the incident a one year old boy was fatally shot in the head. You can read some of the comments about it on my local forum:
//www.city-data.com/forum/san-f...rous-city.html
The boy shot in the head is mentioned by a few in passing. Nobody comes across as being particularly shocked by the incident. The story briefly made local news for maybe a couple of days. Then as one poster puts it: "Yes crime has happened in a major American city... Next."

Can you imagine this happening in the UK? There would be a national outcry.

I have accepted that gun culture is very much ingrained here in America, and nothing can be done to change that. As has been pointed out to me many times, it is written in the constitution (the right to bear arms is written in stone by god himself apparently), but I would hate to see it going that way in the UK. The difference in attitude about bearing arms is the major fundamental difference that keeps gun crime in the UK a tiny fraction of what it is in America.



I can tell you having been a teacher that this is absolutely not the case. In a school where I worked in Blackpool, the headteacher permanently excluded a burly teenager for pushing a teacher through a door. The governing body thought this too harsh a punishment, went over his head and voted to have the kid reinstated. Whereas a teacher these days would likely face a sacking for this.
When I read the kind of comments that seek to diminish the value of senseless, violent deaths because of certain contributing factors i.e. the location, demographics of the perpetrator/victim involved it very much depresses me. The predominance of such attitudes even on some parts of CD takes me back at times.

I think it was John Donne in the early 17th Century who wrote "Each death diminishes me for I am involved in mankind?" And that's geuninely how I believe we should feel even though the sentiments may appear in 2012 a little dated, especially in light of the recent tragedy that has seen two policewomen killed in active service I still feel the basic sentiment expressed is as resonant today as it was when he first wrote the meditation that it is often quoted from.

Anyway, thanks kentmum and ian6479 for two very good posts and for putting these different cultural views into context.
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Old 09-21-2012, 06:15 PM
 
Location: Next stop Antarctica
1,800 posts, read 2,685,785 times
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If more building workers are being killed on building sites around the UK that is a reflection of the lack of Occupational Health and safety procedures on those sites probably due to lack of unions and too many cowboy builders. Police are well trained to deal with certain situations but sometimes things happen in a split second and more guns are not going to help. No their lives are no more value than anyone elses but ask yourself where we would be without these fine young people out there every day.
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Old 09-21-2012, 06:33 PM
 
Location: The Woods
17,898 posts, read 24,357,978 times
Reputation: 10678
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kentmum View Post
Could not agree more.
While there are many great things about America, the one thing I will never be comfortable with is the attitude here towards gun laws and gun violence.
In the month after I moved here there was a shoot out very close to where I live. A gang opened fire on some guys standing about outside a store just after dark. In the incident a one year old boy was fatally shot in the head. You can read some of the comments about it on my local forum:
//www.city-data.com/forum/san-f...rous-city.html
The boy shot in the head is mentioned by a few in passing. Nobody comes across as being particularly shocked by the incident. The story briefly made local news for maybe a couple of days. Then as one poster puts it: "Yes crime has happened in a major American city... Next."

Can you imagine this happening in the UK? There would be a national outcry.

I have accepted that gun culture is very much ingrained here in America, and nothing can be done to change that. As has been pointed out to me many times, it is written in the constitution (the right to bear arms is written in stone by god himself apparently), but I would hate to see it going that way in the UK. The difference in attitude about bearing arms is the major fundamental difference that keeps gun crime in the UK a tiny fraction of what it is in America.



I can tell you having been a teacher that this is absolutely not the case. In a school where I worked in Blackpool, the headteacher permanently excluded a burly teenager for pushing a teacher through a door. The governing body thought this too harsh a punishment, went over his head and voted to have the kid reinstated. Whereas a teacher these days would likely face a sacking for this.
100 years ago the UK had a similar "gun culture" to the U.S. Guns were popular, handguns were readily available and it was simple to legally carry one concealed. The crime rate was lower than currently in the UK.

I think you could arm up the current UK and the crime rate would still be low. Arming your police alone might be a big mistake though.
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Old 09-22-2012, 01:34 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there.
9,086 posts, read 4,938,983 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arctichomesteader View Post
100 years ago the UK had a similar "gun culture" to the U.S. Guns were popular, handguns were readily available and it was simple to legally carry one concealed. The crime rate was lower than currently in the UK.

I think you could arm up the current UK and the crime rate would still be low. Arming your police alone might be a big mistake though.
Well this is not 1912. Times change.
Why would we want to 'arm up' the UK? Why try to fix what isn't broken?
On average there are 58 murders per year by firearm in the whole of the UK.
On average there are more than 100 murders per year just in the city where I live here.
110 homicides here last year. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/08/us...n-oakland.html
It's a virtual bloodbath by comparison.
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Old 09-22-2012, 02:56 AM
 
5,127 posts, read 6,663,276 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ian6479 View Post
"When a European sees a gun they see a symbol of murder and destruction, but when an American sees a gun they see a symbol of freedom".
Look at it from the American point-of-view. Guns won us our freedom from an oppressive king.

The Second Amendment was written with that experience in recent memory. The founding fathers believed that absolute power corrupts absolutely. They were hyper-aware of how easily tyrants come to power and impose their will on the people. There are many examples in history where the first thing a tyrant has done, is to disarm the populace ... the better to gain complete control. And that's when the suffering really begins.

The second amendment is meant to protect us from our own government as much as any invading force. We were the first country to declare that the government existed only by the people's will and that it should serve us.

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -Thomas Jefferson-

It's just a different perspective born of our unique experience.

I live in the mountains in a rural resort area. ALL the locals here are armed to the teeth, partly because they go deer hunting. Our murder rate is practically zero. There are very few house break-ins. With every house armed, no one takes that risk. You really could go to sleep with your doors unlocked.

This is the kind of place where if your car breaks down on the side of the road, total strangers will stop to help you. We have a lot of deer and bears roaming freely. I heard that someone driving through our valley hit a deer and the injury was very bad - the deer's hoof was severed. Several cars were backed up while everyone was looking at the deer. It didn't take long before a local came along and was able to shoot the deer to put it out of it's pain and misery. Yes, they had a gun in the car and no one thought anything about it.

Of course, guns are a problem elsewhere for various reasons. Kentmum, Oakland is one of the most violent places in the U.S., and interestingly, California has the most strict gun control.

I doubt you will ever overturn the Second Amendment. The only possible debate is about what controls to put on gun ownership that doesn't infringe on the right.

Another side to this is that there really are thousands of incidents where a person saved themselves or their family from harm because they defended themselves with a gun. Yet, you seldom see this on the news and many people think the omission is deliberate. When I was a child, my own grandfather saved a neighbor from her violent husband when she ran from her house across the street to my grandparents house. Her husband ran after her and was only persuaded to stop because my grandfather was standing on his front porch with a rifle.

Here is a web site devoted to capturing stories of people who defended themselves with a gun. There are others just like it.

Keep and Bear Arms - Gun Owners Home Page - 2nd Amendment Supporters

The anti-gun lobby likes to scare us with stories of people shot accidentally by their own guns. But where is the balance? There are gun safety standards these people didn't adhere to. And why do they never mention the ones who are alive only because of owning a gun?

I don't expect to change any minds, but these are some things to think about.
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Old 09-22-2012, 03:11 AM
 
5,127 posts, read 6,663,276 times
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The whole quote:

"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive.

If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance?

Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two?

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure."

-Thomas Jefferson-


Clearly, this country came into being with completely different ideas. No wonder it's hard to understand. Your police don't carry guns and fewer of your citizens do. Our police have to carry guns because the citizens do.
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Old 09-22-2012, 05:14 AM
 
Location: The cupboard under the sink
3,999 posts, read 8,281,247 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shooting Stars View Post
Look at it from the American point-of-view. Guns won us our freedom from an oppressive king.

.
And also allowed Americans to oppress others in return...........................
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