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Old 09-22-2012, 05:17 AM
 
Location: The Woods
17,829 posts, read 24,242,974 times
Reputation: 10594

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kentmum View Post
Well this is not 1912. Times change.
Why would we want to 'arm up' the UK? Why try to fix what isn't broken?
On average there are 58 murders per year by firearm in the whole of the UK.
On average there are more than 100 murders per year just in the city where I live here.
110 homicides here last year. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/08/us...n-oakland.html
It's a virtual bloodbath by comparison.
It wasn't that hard to get a license to carry a gun until post-WWII in the UK.

Perhaps some of those 58 could have defended themselves. I don't think loosening the gun laws in the UK would make crime increase at all. Many places have looser gun laws and even lower crime rates. CA is not a comparable situation.
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Old 09-22-2012, 06:40 AM
 
47 posts, read 64,644 times
Reputation: 40
I am from the UK and the majority concencus is that he should not have been allowed on bail as he was charged with 2 previous murders, now it is 4. The police decisions are being critised. I have not read of any arming of more policemen.
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Old 09-22-2012, 07:02 AM
 
47 posts, read 64,644 times
Reputation: 40
Just want to bring some lightheartedness into this, by remembering my teenage years in the 1950s-60s - yes I know it was different then. But so many times i missed the last bus home and was either taken home by a police car, or I asked a street policeman ( where are they now) for help, and he flagged down a lorry and asked if they were going my way, and they were and did take me home and I was sweet 16. The policeman did thank them, but said he had taken their number, just incase, and they were tickled pink as I sat inbetween 2 burly men in their lorry, but were real gentlemen. My parents were embarrassed I had inconvenienced the police so often !!
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Old 09-22-2012, 09:01 AM
 
5,655 posts, read 4,759,689 times
Reputation: 5620
Quote:
Originally Posted by arctichomesteader View Post
It wasn't that hard to get a license to carry a gun until post-WWII in the UK.

Perhaps some of those 58 could have defended themselves. I don't think loosening the gun laws in the UK would make crime increase at all. Many places have looser gun laws and even lower crime rates. CA is not a comparable situation.
I've spent my last 20yrs around firearms, own a gun license (not by choice) and have access to legal firearms. The last thing I want is to see the police on the beat have them and for them to become more commonplace amongst the general populace.

I'm happy with the firearm regulations as they are. I wouldn't want to see them changed and i'm glad to see that all three major political parties, the Police and the vast majority of the population agree with me.

Last edited by Baldrick; 09-22-2012 at 09:49 AM.. Reason: To Edit....
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Old 09-22-2012, 09:04 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there.
8,917 posts, read 4,866,149 times
Reputation: 5770
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shooting Stars View Post
Look at it from the American point-of-view. Guns won us our freedom from an oppressive king.

The Second Amendment was written with that experience in recent memory.
Not that recent. The second amendment was written in 1791. America as you well know declared independence in 1776. That's well over 200 years ago. In that time we've had two world wars. Its time to move on I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shooting Stars View Post
The founding fathers believed that absolute power corrupts absolutely. They were hyper-aware of how easily tyrants come to power and impose their will on the people. There are many examples in history where the first thing a tyrant has done, is to disarm the populace ... the better to gain complete control. And that's when the suffering really begins.

The second amendment is meant to protect us from our own government as much as any invading force. We were the first country to declare that the government existed only by the people's will and that it should serve us.

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -Thomas Jefferson-

It's just a different perspective born of our unique experience.

I live in the mountains in a rural resort area. ALL the locals here are armed to the teeth, partly because they go deer hunting. Our murder rate is practically zero. There are very few house break-ins. With every house armed, no one takes that risk. You really could go to sleep with your doors unlocked.

This is the kind of place where if your car breaks down on the side of the road, total strangers will stop to help you. We have a lot of deer and bears roaming freely. I heard that someone driving through our valley hit a deer and the injury was very bad - the deer's hoof was severed. Several cars were backed up while everyone was looking at the deer. It didn't take long before a local came along and was able to shoot the deer to put it out of it's pain and misery. Yes, they had a gun in the car and no one thought anything about it.

Of course, guns are a problem elsewhere for various reasons. Kentmum, Oakland is one of the most violent places in the U.S., and interestingly, California has the most strict gun control.

I doubt you will ever overturn the Second Amendment. The only possible debate is about what controls to put on gun ownership that doesn't infringe on the right.

Another side to this is that there really are thousands of incidents where a person saved themselves or their family from harm because they defended themselves with a gun. Yet, you seldom see this on the news and many people think the omission is deliberate. When I was a child, my own grandfather saved a neighbor from her violent husband when she ran from her house across the street to my grandparents house. Her husband ran after her and was only persuaded to stop because my grandfather was standing on his front porch with a rifle.

Here is a web site devoted to capturing stories of people who defended themselves with a gun. There are others just like it.

Keep and Bear Arms - Gun Owners Home Page - 2nd Amendment Supporters

The anti-gun lobby likes to scare us with stories of people shot accidentally by their own guns. But where is the balance? There are gun safety standards these people didn't adhere to. And why do they never mention the ones who are alive only because of owning a gun?

I don't expect to change any minds, but these are some things to think about.
Yes shooting stars I'm not disagreeing with anything you said. I completely understand why America has guns and that it is never going to change. It's built into the National psyche.

Where I lived in Kent in the UK there were also very few house break ins. I often went to bed forgetting to lock my door. I almost never locked the car sitting outside my house. It wasn't even a rural town.
You could sleep soundly not because you were armed to the teeth but because you knew nobody else was either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arctichomesteader View Post
It wasn't that hard to get a license to carry a gun until post-WWII in the UK.

Perhaps some of those 58 could have defended themselves. I don't think loosening the gun laws in the UK would make crime increase at all. Many places have looser gun laws and even lower crime rates. CA is not a comparable situation.
We don't want looser gun laws. I accept the differences between our two Nations, maybe you should too?
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Old 09-22-2012, 09:26 AM
 
Location: The Silver State (from the UK)
4,663 posts, read 7,803,953 times
Reputation: 2862
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shooting Stars View Post
Look at it from the American point-of-view. Guns won us our freedom from an oppressive king.

The Second Amendment was written with that experience in recent memory. The founding fathers believed that absolute power corrupts absolutely. They were hyper-aware of how easily tyrants come to power and impose their will on the people. There are many examples in history where the first thing a tyrant has done, is to disarm the populace ... the better to gain complete control. And that's when the suffering really begins.

The second amendment is meant to protect us from our own government as much as any invading force. We were the first country to declare that the government existed only by the people's will and that it should serve us.

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -Thomas Jefferson-

It's just a different perspective born of our unique experience.

I live in the mountains in a rural resort area. ALL the locals here are armed to the teeth, partly because they go deer hunting. Our murder rate is practically zero. There are very few house break-ins. With every house armed, no one takes that risk. You really could go to sleep with your doors unlocked.

This is the kind of place where if your car breaks down on the side of the road, total strangers will stop to help you. We have a lot of deer and bears roaming freely. I heard that someone driving through our valley hit a deer and the injury was very bad - the deer's hoof was severed. Several cars were backed up while everyone was looking at the deer. It didn't take long before a local came along and was able to shoot the deer to put it out of it's pain and misery. Yes, they had a gun in the car and no one thought anything about it.

Of course, guns are a problem elsewhere for various reasons. Kentmum, Oakland is one of the most violent places in the U.S., and interestingly, California has the most strict gun control.

I doubt you will ever overturn the Second Amendment. The only possible debate is about what controls to put on gun ownership that doesn't infringe on the right.

Another side to this is that there really are thousands of incidents where a person saved themselves or their family from harm because they defended themselves with a gun. Yet, you seldom see this on the news and many people think the omission is deliberate. When I was a child, my own grandfather saved a neighbor from her violent husband when she ran from her house across the street to my grandparents house. Her husband ran after her and was only persuaded to stop because my grandfather was standing on his front porch with a rifle.

Here is a web site devoted to capturing stories of people who defended themselves with a gun. There are others just like it.

Keep and Bear Arms - Gun Owners Home Page - 2nd Amendment Supporters

The anti-gun lobby likes to scare us with stories of people shot accidentally by their own guns. But where is the balance? There are gun safety standards these people didn't adhere to. And why do they never mention the ones who are alive only because of owning a gun?

I don't expect to change any minds, but these are some things to think about.


Hey, if "guns" won you your freedom they can also take it away

Here's another thing - how is the 2nd amendment allowing you to protect yourself from "the government" when the conservative members of society (typically 2nd amendment protectors) support current levels of spending on America's military (more than the rest of the world combined)? Is that not a public sector entity?

The reality is that is wasn't written to protect you from today's government. It was written as protection from a tyrannical king at a time where people where running around with bayonets. You should read the English bill of rights and think about the time in which it was written. It was never meant so that people could stroll into Walmart and pick up a semi automatic weapon.
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Old 09-22-2012, 11:22 AM
 
Location: Vancouver
216 posts, read 400,541 times
Reputation: 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by albion View Post
Remember the four US police officers who were shot to death in a coffee shop in Lakewood Washington.
They were all armed
They were outright ambushed, and nothing would have stopped that assault.
Not to change the subject, but notice how the media quickly buried that story soon after it happened? Had the officers been black and the gunman white, it would have been in the news constantly for 10 months - all day, every day......
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Old 09-22-2012, 11:37 AM
 
Location: SWE
887 posts, read 1,477,772 times
Reputation: 808
If a guy in the UK can walk on bail after 2 murders, it won't make much of a difference if the beat police officers are armed or not.
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Old 09-22-2012, 01:00 PM
 
Location: The Woods
17,829 posts, read 24,242,974 times
Reputation: 10594
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kentmum View Post
We don't want looser gun laws. I accept the differences between our two Nations, maybe you should too?
It is a different country, I don't have the final say, but there seems to be a widespread misconception amongst those in the UK that the UK never had widespread gun ownership or a "gun culture" when in fact it did and not that long ago really. I don't mind correcting false info. on that. I gather it's not taught much in history classes over there in school. Nothing wrong with a little friendly debate either.
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Old 09-22-2012, 02:27 PM
 
Location: The Silver State (from the UK)
4,663 posts, read 7,803,953 times
Reputation: 2862
Quote:
Originally Posted by arctichomesteader View Post
It is a different country, I don't have the final say, but there seems to be a widespread misconception amongst those in the UK that the UK never had widespread gun ownership or a "gun culture" when in fact it did and not that long ago really. I don't mind correcting false info. on that. I gather it's not taught much in history classes over there in school. Nothing wrong with a little friendly debate either.

That's true. The bill of rights was introduced so that the Barons could defend themselves and their land from the monarchy. But now, the UK has some of the toughest gun restriction laws in the world: and you won't find many who oppose them! I found this online:


Modern restrictions on gun ownership began in 1903, with the Pistols Act. This required a person to obtain a gun licence before they could buy a firearm with a barrel shorter than 9 inches. The "gun licence" had been introduced as a revenue measure in 1870; the law required a person to obtain a licence if he wanted to carry a gun outside his home, whether for hunting, self-defence, or other reasons, but not to buy one. The licences cost 10 shillings, which is about £31 in 2005 money, lasted one year, and could be bought over the counter at post-offices.

A registration system gun law - the Firearms Act - was first introduced to Great Britain in 1920, spurred on partly due to fears of a surge in crime that might have resulted from the large number of guns available following World War I and in part due to fears of working class unrest in this period. The law did not initially affect smoothbore weapons, which were available for purchase without any form of paperwork.

Fully automatic weapons were almost completely banned from private ownership by the 1937 Firearms Act, which took its inspiration from the US 1934 National Firearms Act. Such weapons are nowadays only available to certain special collectors, museums and prop companies. The 1937 Act also consolidated changes to the 1920 Act that controlled shotguns with barrels shorter than 20". This length was later raised by the 1965 Firearms act to 24".

The first control of long-barrelled shotguns began in 1967 with the Criminal Justice Act. This required a person to obtain a "Shotgun Certificate" to own any shotgun. The Act did not require the registration of shotguns, only licensing.

Changes in public attitudes in the 1970s and 1980s changed the basis on which firearms were perceived and understood in British society. Increasingly graphic portrayals of firearms involved in gratuitous acts of violence in the mass media gave rise to concern of the emergence of an aggressive "gun culture". A steady rise in violent gun crime in general also became an issue of concern. This period saw a change of attitude within the government away from legislating to preclude a violent civil uprising to legislating to ensure public safety and prevent crime, with the most radical changes being introduced in the aftermath of a specific incident.
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