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Old 10-08-2019, 04:36 AM
 
Location: The Driftless Area, WI
7,118 posts, read 4,953,776 times
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I thought everybody in GB drove on the wrong side?
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Old 10-08-2019, 05:32 AM
 
Location: Somewhere on the Moon.
9,782 posts, read 14,624,265 times
Reputation: 10049
Many Americans complain that in the UK they drive on the "wrong side of the road," but my goodness did she took it personal. Then she flees the country based on a "tip." That woman is simply doing blunders right after another. Poor kid and his now suffering family.

There is something else after life, basically proven to me on at least two occasions (I only remember one which happen several months ago.) I don't know there are religious aspects to this, but there definitely is something else after life and a person doesn't need to believe in it to see it. Justice will be served to her, everyone can be sure about that.

May that kid RIP and his family heals from this terrible loss.
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Old 10-08-2019, 09:20 AM
 
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,809 posts, read 34,433,398 times
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This has been covered on the national news in the US. Everybody knows about it and her name. It was also announced that she was ticketed in the US for not paying attention while driving.
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Old 10-08-2019, 11:07 AM
 
Location: Great Britain
26,882 posts, read 13,100,832 times
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It now turns out that the womans's husband was not registered for diplomatic immunity.

As for whether this should be covered by Visiting Forces Legislation is highly debatable, and I doubt the USAF which has other bases in the UK would want to be seen as above the law in such circumstances.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Guardian

The husband of the American woman granted immunity following a fatal car crash in the UK was not registered as a diplomat, an expert in diplomatic law has said.

Mark Stephens said Jonathan Sacoolas, the husband of Anne Sacoolas, was not on the official diplomatic list, meaning he and his dependants may not be allowed the same level of protection from prosecution by claiming diplomatic immunity.

Stephens said the Foreign Office had confirmed this to him. The FCO was not immediately able to comment.

Stephens said Jonathan Sacoolas was not on the London diplomatic list, and as a result the level of immunity his wife could claim over a British teenager’s death in the collision was far more limited.

The US has already transferred the entire family back to the US after her alleged role in the death of 19-year-old Harry Dunn in a fatal crash.

Harry Dunn death: Anne Sacoolas's husband 'not registered as diplomat - The Guardian

Quote:
Originally Posted by CPS

Jurisdiction

The countries which are within the scheme set up by the Act are set out in Section 1 Visiting Forces Act 1952 and in Part ll of Schedule I to the Visiting Forces and International Headquarters (Application of Law) Order 1999.

Remember that if the service court would not have jurisdiction then the United Kingdom court will deal with the case. In particular, in times of peace, the United States Court Martial has no jurisdiction to deal with cases involving civilian employees of United States forces nor can it deal with the dependants of United States forces personnel.

Section 3 of the Act sets out in detail when the service court will have the primary right to exercise jurisdiction to deal with a case involving visiting forces personnel. Essentially this will only apply where a member of their visiting force is alleged to have committed an offence against the person (see definition of offence against person set out in the Schedule to the Visiting Forces Act 1952) where the victim has a relevant association with the visiting force.

Visiting Forces | The Crown Prosecution Service


Last edited by Brave New World; 10-08-2019 at 12:11 PM..
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Old 10-08-2019, 02:42 PM
 
26 posts, read 24,513 times
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Ah, but I think therein lies an issue, AFAIK, the situation is that only London based foreign nationals are afforded diplomatic immunity, however this was extended on an exceptional basis to the station in question, now I will not claim to be any type of expert, or even particularly knowledgeable about this type of thing. But common decency, which having worked with and known many Americans over the years, I know full well Americans possess (although perhaps not in the alleged perpetrators case).

There is no doubt in my mind she should face the weight of the law in the country she, allegedly committed the crime in, I would fully expect the reverse to hold too.
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Old 10-08-2019, 05:37 PM
 
Location: Great Britain
26,882 posts, read 13,100,832 times
Reputation: 19107
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukwingman View Post
Ah, but I think therein lies an issue, AFAIK, the situation is that only London based foreign nationals are afforded diplomatic immunity, however this was extended on an exceptional basis to the station in question, now I will not claim to be any type of expert, or even particularly knowledgeable about this type of thing. But common decency, which having worked with and known many Americans over the years, I know full well Americans possess (although perhaps not in the alleged perpetrators case).

There is no doubt in my mind she should face the weight of the law in the country she, allegedly committed the crime in, I would fully expect the reverse to hold too.


According to author Craig Murray who used to wok for the British Foreign and Commonwealth Office, the agreement that Britain had in relation to RAF Croughton was seperate altogether to the Vienna Convention, and therefore there is a lot less protection under the law.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Murray

Jonathan Sacoolas does not hold, and has never held, a diplomatic rank. He has never been a member of staff of a diplomatic mission. (All those with diplomatic rank appear in the diplomatic list, see above link. That list also includes some attaches who do not have diplomatic rank (depending on the type of attache), but there is nobody with diplomatic rank not in the list).

Jonathan Sacoolas does not have, and has never had, any entitlement to diplomatic immunity in international law. Sacoolas works as an NSA technical officer at the communications interceptions post at “RAF Croughton”. His role is support to the interception of communications from British citizens

Jonathan Sacoolas Is Not, and Has Never Been, a Diplomat - Craig Murray
The only remotely comparable case is that of a Georgian Diplomat Gueorgui Makharadze in the US, who on January 3, 1997, while driving in Washington, D.C. around midnight, caused an accident that injured four people and killed a Brazilian girl, Jovianne Waltrick, who was sixteen years old. Makharadze was found to have a blood alcohol content of 0.15.

The U.S. government later asked the Georgian government to waive his immunity, which they did and Makharadze was tried and convicted of manslaughter by the U.S. and sentenced to seven to twenty-one years in prison, he was released on February 27, 2002.

Gueorgui Makharadze - Wikipedia

CNN - Georgian diplomat gets prison term for car crash (Dec 1997)

Last edited by Brave New World; 10-08-2019 at 05:47 PM..
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Old 10-08-2019, 06:19 PM
 
18,082 posts, read 18,681,854 times
Reputation: 25191
Quote:
Originally Posted by evening sun View Post
Dreadful. Diplomatic immunity should be severely restricted & not available for spouse or family. In all countries too.
You will not find anyone to take such positions then, qualified people that is. No one is going to spend years, even most of their career, overseas without their families with them. They are not going to take their families if not given some degree of legal protection.
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Old 10-09-2019, 12:16 AM
 
2,264 posts, read 959,296 times
Reputation: 3047
Diplomats and their families can be shielded from malicious prosecution overseas while still being held accountable for any crimes they commit. It’s not brain science.
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Old 10-09-2019, 04:22 AM
 
Location: Itinerant
8,278 posts, read 6,233,569 times
Reputation: 6681
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathlete View Post
Diplomats and their families can be shielded from malicious prosecution overseas while still being held accountable for any crimes they commit. It’s not brain science.
Sure, unless that bad actor is the state they're assigned to.

For instance, suppose a UK diplomat has their family in China, one night their son is caught with 1Kg of heroin. Has he committed a crime? Wouldn't that depend on whether he really had that heroin, or whether the police planted it, because I'm sure the Chinese State could come to an arrangement with the diplomat in regards to the arrest and issue, regardless of the veracity of the events.

How do you shield against alleged malicious prosecution, and not against alleged crimes committed?
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Old 10-09-2019, 04:22 AM
 
13,499 posts, read 18,088,148 times
Reputation: 37885
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave New World View Post
It now turns out that the womans's husband was not registered for diplomatic immunity....
This was a very disturbing twist on an already ugly story.

In several accounts I have read or heard that she was "advised" to leave the U.K. I would like to know just who gave her this advice and why, especially if it turns out that the couple did not have immunity. If it was a U.S. diplomatic staff person we shall probably never know, of course.
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