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Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
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I'm an Urban planner with a Bachelor's Degree and work in a rural small town 2 hours from the nearest major city, but I'm also Australian so I don't know how the US system differs. I hear urban planning there is more design-focused compared to here where it's more law-focused/statutory. I'm not sure if each county in the US has it's own planning department as is the case in most local governments here, but perhaps the best way ito help them s the private sector.
I'm an Urban planner with a Bachelor's Degree and work in a rural small town 2 hours from the nearest major city, but I'm also Australian so I don't know how the US system differs. I hear urban planning there is more design-focused compared to here where it's more law-focused/statutory. I'm not sure if each county in the US has it's own planning department as is the case in most local governments here, but perhaps the best way ito help them s the private sector.
"Urban Planning" is really a big umbrella term. What you're used to (the legal aspect) is very much a big part of Urban Planning here. In fact, when I started my Masters program, I debated whether or not to do the joint J.D and Urban Planning program or just the plain Urban Planning. I decided not to get the J.D. as I was more interested in the design aspect, but in hind sight, it couldn't have hurt to get the JD.
At the same time, the design focus is equally as common. Really, it depends on what you want to do. There's more money in the private sector, but it's difficult to get a job there without some experience on the government level (be it local, state or federal).
^Not necessarily at all. Many urban planning positions (real ones, by the way) are appointed or even open for applications. Check the U.S. Government Jobs site if you're not sure. Furthermore, you can easily work for a developer in an entry level planning position without having millions of dollars at your disposal. You can be highly influential in a planning job without being either elected or at the helm of millions of dollars (or both).
Get a job with the feds and call it a day. Federal jobs pay much better than any of the menial salaries I have seen on here. Most new planners with Master's degrees start out at around $50,000 and will quickly accelerate to around $80,000 in a few years. From there, you can steadily climb to around $100,000 within 20-25 years.
I have no idea why young planners think that they are going to be the people who change the world. People will live the way they want. The sooner you accept that, the better. If you want to work in a small town, be prepared to make $15,000 a year starting out. Watch yourself get close to retirement age making $35,000 a year.
listen, i think it would be super cool to be able to make decisions about how others lived, based on your expertise. but that isn't the real world.
Wow. What's your beef with urban planning? Is that a shot at the government or do you really just dislike the field that much?
Two simple points:
1) Who said anything about "making decisions about how others lived"? I'm in an Master of City Planning program as we speak and I can't think of a single person spending good money on their degree in my program who wants to "make decisions about how others live." We have a fascination with the built environment and a desire to improve our respective communities. That's just about it.
2) Like I said in my previous post, "real" urban planning jobs aren't only limited to elected positions or people with millions of dollars to throw around. Quite the contrary. In fact, I'm living proof. I work for a municipal planning department and write proposals for state, federal and private funding for local improvements, and in some cases, historic preservation. I was not elected and I'm certainly not in control of millions of dollars. I consider my job a "real" urban planning job (and so do the people I work with... non of whom were elected to their positions). After I finish my Masters program, I am going to do my best to get another job with the local, state or federal government (again, not elected positions). My dream is that one day I can get a job in the private sector in charge of millions of dollars, but I'm not holding my breath. I'm fine with working for the government if that never pans out. Still, I beg to differ that "real" urban planning jobs are only for those who are elected or have money to throw around.
Get a job with the feds and call it a day. Federal jobs pay much better than any of the menial salaries I have seen on here. Most new planners with Master's degrees start out at around $50,000 and will quickly accelerate to around $80,000 in a few years. From there, you can steadily climb to around $100,000 within 20-25 years.
I have no idea why young planners think that they are going to be the people who change the world. People will live the way they want. The sooner you accept that, the better. If you want to work in a small town, be prepared to make $15,000 a year starting out. Watch yourself get close to retirement age making $35,000 a year.
I could care less about making lots of money. I want to make a positive impact on the world, not go for the money grab. Hey, if I just wanted to make money, I would go into sales. I've worked sales before - made money, but was miserable. More money = more stress. I want to help small towns - that's why I'm doing this. Also, the cost of living is much higher in big cities, so more of my money would go down the drain.
Wow. What's your beef with urban planning? Is that a shot at the government or do you really just dislike the field that much?
i have no "beef" with urban planning, or urban planners.
i just think your comments are idealistic, borne of someone who has been sitting in classrooms learning about ideas, rather than seeing how decisions are made in the real world.
people with money and influence get to decide what happens, and if urban planners are lucky, the people with money and influence might even ask for their opinions.
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1) Who said anything about "making decisions about how others lived"?
I did.
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I'm in an Master of City Planning program as we speak and I can't think of a single person spending good money on their degree in my program who wants to "make decisions about how others live." We have a fascination with the built environment and a desire to improve our respective communities. That's just about it.
so how do you expect to change your community, without making any decisions about how others live? what do you think a "community" is, if not a group of people who are living together?
unless you're some kind of billionaire philanthropist, you're going to need their tax dollars and their consent to change anything. with regulations and/or zoning , you're going to need their consent to deliberately restrict their own property rights.
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2) Like I said in my previous post, "real" urban planning jobs aren't only limited to elected positions or people with millions of dollars to throw around. Quite the contrary. In fact, I'm living proof. I work for a municipal planning department and write proposals for state, federal and private funding for local improvements, and in some cases, historic preservation. I was not elected and I'm certainly not in control of millions of dollars. I consider my job a "real" urban planning job (and so do the people I work with... non of whom were elected to their positions).
that's fine. i'd say you have really low standards for what a "real" urban planning job is. filing reports, creating master plans, recommending best practices, and looking for funding is not a REAL urban planning job. Sorry to say, but the people who make the decisions don't care much about the opinions of bureacrats; it is about the dollar and the vote. The people who have the ability to determine what actually happens - aka REAL urban planning - are the people with money and influence.
i just think your comments are idealistic, borne of someone who has been sitting in classrooms learning about ideas, rather than seeing how decisions are made in the real world.
people with money and influence get to decide what happens, and if urban planners are lucky, the people with money and influence might even ask for their opinions.
I work a job making real world decisions. I know how they're made. Money and power are obviously the two key factors. Still, I have very little money and not so much power. My only power is persuasion and the ability to compile evidence to support my case. I use that power to obtain money to make things happen in the area. I don't have money to throw around (as you said you need "millions of dollars to throw around" to have to have a "real" urban planning job) nor was I elected (the only other way to have a "real" planning job according to you). Still, I get things done. Luck has little to do with it, it's mostly practice and skill.
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I did.
so how do you expect to change your community, without making any decisions about how others live? what do you think a "community" is, if not a group of people who are living together?
unless you're some kind of billionaire philanthropist, you're going to need their tax dollars and their consent to change anything. with regulations and/or zoning , you're going to need their consent to deliberately restrict their own property rights.
So there IS a political bent behind your post. You say you don't have anything against planners or the field in general, yet you subtly inject sentences like, "control how people live" or "deliberately restrict their own property rights" in your post. I don't know you, but I'm guessing a bit of a lean to the right? That's fine, but don't pretend there's no agenda behind those phrases. Many on the right feel that urban planners are infringing on their "God-given rights" by supporting funding for things like public transit (they like to forget that their roadways are heavily subsidized too).
Anyway, I'll bite on the questions:
1) "deliberately restrict their own property rights" is your wording, not mine. Many changes to zoning law INCREASE property rights. Changing a residential zone to a mixed-use zone allows for much varied usage of the same piece of property. For what it's worth, I think restrictive zoning is one of the biggest problems with the way cities and towns operate today. Many of the terrible growth patterns all across the nation can be directly linked to restrictive zoning. In fact, a big part of my work deals with trying to relax local zoning laws to encourage more free economic development in the area.
2) I don't plan on FORCING anyone to do anything (and I never have forced anyone to do anything). I certainly wouldn't take away cars, force people to move or do anything of that nature. What I'd like to do is introduce opportunity for new growth and incubate existing growth factors. Improving roads, access to public transit, relaxing zoning laws in many areas, luring new business, etc are all areas that I'm working (and wish to continue working) on. Of course these things are "changes," but encouraging (again, different than forcing) change is a hell of a different than "controlling how people live." No one's being controlled. Your wording is the problem.
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that's fine. i'd say you have really low standards for what a "real" urban planning job is. filing reports, creating master plans, recommending best practices, and looking for funding is not a REAL urban planning job.
Ok, then what are they?
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Sorry to say, but the people who make the decisions don't care much about the opinions of bureacrats; it is about the dollar and the vote. The people who have the ability to determine what actually happens - aka REAL urban planning - are the people with money and influence.
The people who make the decisions DO care about the opinions of the "bureaucrats" (another one of your carefully selected words) if the so-called-bureaucrats get the support of the majority. Based on the same logic, no military official has power because the president makes the final calls? No one but the CEO of any corporation has power because the CEO makes the final call? Part of my job requires me to not only come up with solutions to current problems or create ideas for improvement, but to gauge and gain community support. If I have the support of the population, it would behoove the "decision maker" to make sure the people get what they want (if he/she wants their votes). That's where my job (of course I mean my entire office) is VERY important. Again, I don't have money (until I get it from another source), but I can certainly have influence if I make a good enough case. Of course, my position is similar to others all around the country. I'm not at the helm of a boatload of money, I wasn't elected, but I get things done; even if it takes time.
I love my field. I have NO interest in running for elected office. I have a LOT of interest in become very wealthy, but I don't need either of those things to make a significant impact. I pass different projects on a daily basis that my office played a significant role in making possible. We may not have paid for them out of pocked and we didn't have the final decision, but we made sure the odds were heavily in our favor. That's as real as it gets.
Your posts are essentially saying that unless you're a multi-millionaire or someone elected to a position of power, you can't get anything done. Not only is that incorrect, it's absolutely ridiculous. There are thousands in the field who would beg to differ. When I see projects (both public and private projects) that we helped make possible, I have all the proof I need that that's the case.
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