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I think the problem of noise from delivery trucks can be solved through good design of alleys and loading bays. Most modern grocery stores have loading bays behind or under their buildings so that delivery trucks are not blocking traffic. I've lived above a grocery store in a mixed use development AND about 400 yards from a grocery store in a more traditional neighborhood. I have never heard noise in the mixed use development mostly because the trucks load in the garage. I did hear noise when I lived near the other grocery store, but it was only the very occasional beeping noise of a truck backing up.
I didn't mean your example didn't count; just that when people talk about "mixed use" they mean living next to small shops, or at least something less offensive than a steel mill. Instead of zoning for no business or all businesses, a town could allow certain businesses. A few mostly residential but secondary streets in my town have some scattered small shops mixed in between the housing.
Well, yeah, that's what most people, some of whom have never seen a factory town, mean. It never occurs to them that "mixed use" could include heavy industry.
Well, yeah, that's what most people, some of whom have never seen a factory town, mean. It never occurs to them that "mixed use" could include heavy industry.
I don't know any current zoning laws that allow for new residential development near heavy industry. I think that's what zoning laws were initially meant to counteract in the early 1900s. This was, I think a noble goal for the health of the people living too next to these factories or mills, but led to overly restrictive single-use zoning.
Perhaps people should be more specific of what kinds of mixed use neighbourhoods/areas they mean.
It's all too easy to use "guilt by association" and accepting one image in your head of the definition of the kind of place the other person likes and then claiming by association that the person likes (whether you think it's positive or negative) another image of a place associated with that definition.
Perhaps people should be more specific of what kinds of mixed use neighbourhoods/areas they mean.
It's all too easy to use "guilt by association" and accepting one image in your head of the definition of the kind of place the other person likes and then claiming by association that the person likes (whether you think it's positive or negative) another image of a place associated with that definition.
That's very true. I think a lot of people assume mixed-used developments to be these somewhat trendy areas which are specifically marketed as "mixed use" by proponents. Like this:
I have a more expansive idea of what "mixed use" means. I include areas like the one below, which include a mix of single family homes, three- and four-family homes, apartments across the street from a strip mall type development with a grocery store, a couple bars, and some small restaurants mixed in. There is some separation between uses but everything is within walking distance.
I would also consider this area mixed use. while most of the main roads are commercial (with the exception of the yellow condo building). The side roads contain single- and multi-family homes dating from the 1930s and 40s.
No, mixed use doesn't mean heavy industry. Mixed use doesn't mean "no rules on land use whatsoever." Nor does it mean an immediate return to exactly the way people lived in the 19th century.
Stumbler.: The problem is that there isn't a single definition--and a mixed-use neighborhood can, by definition, have different uses in different areas, different densities and different configurations. So a single-family home and a skyscraper can both be par of "mixed-use" communities, depending on what else is around them. The folks who automatically go for the most ridiculous interpretation imaginable (like mixed use means returning to putting houses next to belching factory smokestacks and stockyards, or forcing people into Soviet-style prefab apartment buildings) will do so no matter how carefully you frame the discussion.
I really want to hear names of cities that had "strictly" residential areas in the 1920s. They would have been few or far between.
I can only name the cities I've lived in or visited extensively (because like other people in this forum, I don't try to pontificate about what I've not experienced first hand):
And, for the record, other than my parents' house in Erie, I've never lived in a neighborhood that was developed after 1930. These cities all have residential-only neighborhoods apart from their neighborhood business districts on what Nei is calling "side streets." I can think of at least a half-dozen Cincinnati neighborhoods where even the main drags are nothing but houses for blocks and blocks, until you get to the next business district.
Now, if you're defining mixed use to include those residential streets three or seven or 16 blocks away (or farther) from a neighborhood business district, well ... then you have me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei
So, I think that Easthampton neighborhood was a factory town. Do others think I'm right?
I think you are. Where I live now, there are clusters of row houses around the old mill buildings, which were about a mile away from the central business district and along the railroad tracks. There probably were more of them years ago when the mills were running, now replaced with Dunkin Donuts and used car lots.
I can only name the cities I've lived in or visited extensively (because like other people in this forum, I don't try to pontificate about what I've not experienced first hand):
And, for the record, other than my parents' house in Erie, I've never lived in a neighborhood that was developed after 1930. These cities all have residential-only neighborhoods apart from their neighborhood business districts on what Nei is calling "side streets." I can think of at least a half-dozen Cincinnati neighborhoods where even the main drags are nothing but houses for blocks and blocks, until you get to the next business district.
Now, if you're defining mixed use to include those residential streets three or seven or 16 blocks away (or farther) from a neighborhood business district, well ... then you have me.
I think you are. Where I live now, there are clusters of row houses around the old mill buildings, which were about a mile away from the central business district and along the railroad tracks. There probably were more of them years ago when the mills were running, now replaced with Dunkin Donuts and used car lots.
I can add a few, by the same criteria, e.g. lived in or visited extensively:
Beaver Falls, PA
Champaign, IL
Urbana, IL
Denver
Boulder, CO
Colorado Springs, CO
Omaha
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei
So, I think that Easthampton neighborhood was a factory town. Do others think I'm right?
I can only name the cities I've lived in or visited extensively (because like other people in this forum, I don't try to pontificate about what I've not experienced first hand):
And, for the record, other than my parents' house in Erie, I've never lived in a neighborhood that was developed after 1930. These cities all have residential-only neighborhoods apart from their neighborhood business districts on what Nei is calling "side streets." I can think of at least a half-dozen Cincinnati neighborhoods where even the main drags are nothing but houses for blocks and blocks, until you get to the next business district.
Now, if you're defining mixed use to include those residential streets three or seven or 16 blocks away (or farther) from a neighborhood business district, well ... then you have me.
As I mentioned, my town has a few small businesses scattered off the main commercial streets that are mostly residences. Though it's on what I call through streets, not main commercial streets, but not side streets. My distinction would make sense if you looked at a map, since we don't have a grid system (like that Easthampton view).
Just about every city including the densest ones don't have businesses on every street outside downtown or the main business district area. There isn't enough business from locals to support them and while residents might not want businesses on their quiet streets, businesses prefer to be on the busier streets for visibility. For example, in this Brooklyn neighborhood, the businesses are almost all on 5th and 7th avenue, and the rest is housing, with warehouses west of 4th. People live above the stores on those avenues, but most don't. If you live on the streets, it's quiet; I found it peaceful. Little through traffic goes on the streets, and the locals don't drive much for errands. Much of the rest of the city is similar; shops a few blocks away in walking distance but not necessarily on the street you live on.
Quote:
I think you are. Where I live now, there are clusters of row houses around the old mill buildings, which were about a mile away from the central business district and along the railroad tracks. There probably were more of them years ago when the mills were running, now replaced with Dunkin Donuts and used car lots.
Ah. I think none of the Easthampton ones were demolished, just used as cheaper housing. Not as cheap as I expected, zillow claims $190k / per house. But since it's 2 units a house, still under $100k / unit
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Where I live now, there are clusters of row houses around the old mill buildings, which were about a mile away from the central business district and along the railroad tracks. There probably were more of them years ago when the mills were running, now replaced with Dunkin Donuts and used car lots.
