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I'm not sure why you're so disbelieving that Tb was a problem in large cities in the US until well into the 1950s. That just goes against the historical fact.
you are conflating two different discussions, based on different links from your post.
One is about the origin of herd diseases.
The other is about the relevance of TB to this discussion. Was TB more widespread in urban slums in the 1920s (or 1950s) than in poor parts of the rural south in the same areas? Maybe. But then there was a lot wrong with rural poverty in both those periods, which is why people from those rual areas migrated to cities. I think the OP though was comparing cities of the 1920s to metro areas of today.
Well, prior to the 1920s or so, people used horses for personal transportation. That's what I meant by saying that people will still need transit. I should have been more specific. People seem to like personal transportation, "on demand" so to speak.
I believe the fastest growing form of personal transport in the decades just prior to the commercialization of the auto, was the bicycle, which had many advantages over the horse.
IIUC the first big demand for rubber was for bicycle tires, and the first push for widespread paving of rural roads was by cyclists.
Basically asking about a city that exists in the present day that never accommodated cars.
Like Venice! Love, love, love that city. All streets are "pedestrian streets," which is very liberating for anyone who prefers walking as their primary mode of transportation. There are other forms of transportation as well -- boats bring deliveries, for example -- but the businesses face the people who are walking.
you are conflating two different discussions, based on different links from your post.
One is about the origin of herd diseases.
The other is about the relevance of TB to this discussion. Was TB more widespread in urban slums in the 1920s (or 1950s) than in poor parts of the rural south in the same areas? Maybe. But then there was a lot wrong with rural poverty in both those periods, which is why people from those rual areas migrated to cities. I think the OP though was comparing cities of the 1920s to metro areas of today.
Two different issues, but so what? I was trying to point out several things about health conditions of cities. I have discussed both issues separately. If anyone conflated them, it wasn't me.
THE OP HAS NOT BEEN BACK TO EXPLAIN WHAT S/HE MEANT! Your guess is as good as mine. My point about the Great Migration was to show that migration to cities has happened in fairly recent times, post 1920, as well as the neolithic times which you seem to be stuck on. In the midwest, many people in cities are only one or two generations off the farm.
Well, prior to the 1920s or so, people used horses for personal transportation. That's what I meant by saying that people will still need transit. I should have been more specific. People seem to like personal transportation, "on demand" so to speak.
I think for most people in cities in the early 20th century, horses were only used for point to point delivery of bulky goods or transport for some of the wealthy. Streetcars and trains were for transit for most. Except as a taxi service, horses aren't that useful as urban transport — there isn't space to house horses in say, a rowhouses or urban housing of that era.
Since transit use was much higher, transit frequency could be higher, leading to frequencies that feel nearly "on demand".
I think for most people in cities in the early 20th century, horses were only used for point to point delivery of bulky goods or transport for some of the wealthy. Streetcars and trains were for transit for most. Except as a taxi service, horses aren't that useful as urban transport — there isn't space to house horses in say, a rowhouses or urban housing of that era.
Since transit use was much higher, transit frequency could be higher, leading to frequencies that feel nearly "on demand".
We read a lot about the piles of manure in NYC and other cities, pre-car. Do you have any evidence of transit frequency being higher? The transit also has to be going where you want to go. I don't think Pittsburgh had any heavy rail except into/out of the city, not intracity.
Two different issues, but so what? I was trying to point out several things about health conditions of cities. I have discussed both issues separately. If anyone conflated them, it wasn't me.
THE OP HAS NOT BEEN BACK TO EXPLAIN WHAT S/HE MEANT! Your guess is as good as mine. My point about the Great Migration was to show that migration to cities has happened in fairly recent times, post 1920, as well as the neolithic times which you seem to be stuck on. In the midwest, many people in cities are only one or two generations off the farm.
Thats precisely what I mean by conflating.
The great migration of the 1920s is not relevant to the quote about cities and crowd diseases, because the 1920s rural south HAD crowd diseases. Its not relevant to TB, because TB is not an issue for contemporary cities. (which is clearly what the OP meant - I do not buy this deconstructionist thing that all interpretations are equal).
I am not stuck in neolithic times - it is however relevant if the role of cities in evolution of diseases is the issue.
We read a lot about the piles of manure in NYC and other cities, pre-car. Do you have any evidence of transit frequency being higher? The transit also has to be going where you want to go. I don't think Pittsburgh had any heavy rail except into/out of the city, not intracity.
Cite please? For piles of manure in NYC in, say, 1915?
To get solidly precar I suppose you need to go to 1890. Of course thats also before the subway was built, and when most of the els were new.
Cite please? For piles of manure in NYC in, say, 1915?
To get solidly precar I suppose you need to go to 1890. Of course thats also before the subway was built, and when most of the els were new.
We're going a bit off the topic of 1920s. We were discussing how point to point horse drawn transport was in cities before people owned automobile.
As for NYC, regardless of how much horse manure was on the street, there was no space for all but a few for anyone to house horses at their home (automobiles aren't that useful for point to point transport in Manhattan, which was much of the city back then, today due to lack of space to park them). The piles of manure were probably much higher pre-electric streetcar, and pre-el and pre-subway, when streetcars were horse-drawn. Everyday people were not typically going around on a horse and carriage in big cities 100 years ago and the use of them declined once streetcars (and for NYC and a few other cities, heavy rail) became common.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana
Do you have any evidence of transit frequency being higher? The transit also has to be going where you want to go. I don't think Pittsburgh had any heavy rail except into/out of the city, not intracity.
No, I don't but typically today, transit lines with higher ridership have higher frequencies. With car low and transit usage much higher frequencies must have been much higher. It'd be interesting to look up frequencies but it might be a chore. True, transit needs to be where you want to go. But since most people used transit (or walked for short distance trips) most destinations tended to be along transit lines as is partially true for cities with high transit use today. With a "hub and spoke" model this leads to many destinations concentrated in the center of the city as the most convenient location for most.
When the world’s first international urban-planning conference was held, in 1898, it was dominated by discussion of the manure situation. Unable to agree upon any solutions—or to imagine cities without horses—the delegates broke up the meeting, which had been scheduled to last a week and a half, after just three days. . . .
Then, almost overnight, the crisis passed... With electrification and the development of the internal-combustion engine, there were new ways to move people and goods around. By 1912, autos in New York outnumbered horses, and in 1917 the city’s last horse-drawn streetcar made its final run
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