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Even some of the free-standing single story grocery stores with parking lots in Chicago are relatively small. So I guess if 40k is the cut-off and TJ doesn't count, Chicago is just a rural backwater.
I think some of you guys need to calm down and stop being offended by a discussion. Just say you disagree and give your reasons. Are you mad or something? This is a message board you know? I never said Trader Joe's didn't count. I said I included it because it was a popular grocery store and I was just giving a frame of reference because there was confusion on how big 40,000 sq. feet was.
Many building's have multi-uses when it comes to retail. Here are two more grocery store's coming to D.C. I didn't list among the 10 grocery stores earlier that have an even bigger list of different uses. Again, I think full service grocery store formats may be common in D.C. because of the design of the city and building's. It may not be as feasible in other cities. Here are two other's that will deliver in 2014:
50,000 sq. foot Harris Teeter Grocery Store, 28,000 sq. foot Vida Fitness (with its Bang Salon and Aura Spa affiliates), and 10,000 sq. feet of additional retail space with 218 apartments above The Yards/Twelve12 Apts., Harris Teeter - JDLand.com
That's part of the reason this isn't a very good test for urbanity.
Most buildings in Manhattan aren't skyscrapers. There are plenty of old buildings where large stores could be squeezed in:
That is probably true about urbanity. Most of the old building's aren't entire blocks though which is what would be needed. These grocery store's don't fit into Manhattan building's. If you click on the links, you can see footprint's that large rarely exist in Manhattan for one single building. Also, major upscale grocery stores are only going to locate in old outdated buildings on very limited occasions. They normally locate in your typical brand new upscale new granite counter top/stainless steel appliance type of buildings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei
But space is valuable and retail rent is high, so large grocery stores aren't going to built that often.
I don't think that is true. D.C. is in the top three for most expensive land in the nation and has 12 of these mixed use building's coming in the next year or two. I think it has more to do with the market. There are way more if you look across the D.C. region too. I think 2easy brought up a good point earlier that this may have more to do with the D.C. market and its focus on TOD development than anything else. These are being built at metro stations all over the region much less in the city. Then again, many areas outside the city are becoming their own little cities in their own regard with new urbanism being the norm in this area. I think it's a regional thing after greater analysis probably brought on by the success of Metro etc. That is not stopping many cities around the nation from doing it too though.
I don't think that is true. D.C. is in the top three for most expensive land in the nation and has 12 of these mixed use building's coming in the next year or two. I think it has more to do with the market. There are way more if you look across the D.C. region too. I think 2easy brought up a good point earlier that this may have more to do with the D.C. market and its focus on TOD development than anything else. These are being built at metro stations all over the region much less in the city. Then again, many areas outside the city are becoming their own little cities in their own regard with new urbanism being the norm in this area. I think it's a regional thing after greater analysis probably brought on by the success of Metro etc. That is not stopping many cities around the nation from doing it too though.
I mentioned this too - it's not an urbanity test. It is a test of which cities are building the most mixed-use developments. DC and Los Angeles are two leaders of transit oriented development (as well as just transit development) so it is not that surprising that they have a lot of these. I honestly think LA might be in the top 5, and wouldn't be surprised if DC was number one. There is a probability of Los Angeles getting about 4-5 of these types of developments in the next year with a handful of massive mixed-use buildings in the middle of construction (BLVD 6200 phases 1 and 2, La Brea and Fountain 1 (Jon's Grocery Killer), La Brea and Fountain 2 (Carl's Jr Killer), about 3 mixed use projects downtown, a couple in Koreatown and one in East Hollywood. I would imagine about half of these will get the grocery-store or big-box store over apartments format, perhaps more.
The market drives what is feasible and what is not in a city or region. Can a realistic urbanity test be taken based on the market for major grocery stores with apartments above them versus the suburban format? Cities where grocery stores are common on the first floor of apartment buildings is one of the most valid arguments for urbanity. This is especially true when considering the structurally built environment building density (closeness of buildings) in a city.
How would you rank the top five cites with them? Please only use major grocery stores versus small neighborhood markets. Thoughts?
I don't know, but this one in Downtown Denver is probably one the best examples of a successful grocery store in an urban environment, that I have ever seen. Not exactly on the first floor. But it's a full size supermarket attached to a high-rise apartment building. There is direct access from the apartment building into the supermarket via a locked door. Better yet, the store is surrounded by about ten other high-rise apartment buildings all within a 2 - 5 minute walk. The store has plenty of parking. Bus stops on all sides and a light rail station two blocks away. They have everybody covered
The walk score for the apartment buildings is 94. Which is by far the highest anywhere in Denver. Nothing else even comes close.
I think you seem to be missing the point here. We aren't talking about one or two outlier new urban format grocery stores. We are talking about the norm across a city. The question is about the market potential of grocery stores that are built under highrises etc. I talked about market potential in the first post. Developers won't build this type of mixed use if its not financially feasible or profitable. I guess a better question would be how many surface parking lot grocery stores does your city have versus urban highrise mixed use ones?
I take issue with your statement in the first post you made in this thread:
Quote:
Cities where grocery stores are common on the first floor of apartment buildings is one of the most valid arguments for urbanity.
I don't think "40K sq ft grocery stores on the ground floor of apartment buildings" is a valid argument for urbanity, much less the "most valid".
The ironic thing is that most people want to live in the city to be within close proximity of "amenities," but historically our most urban areas have been the most amenity-deprived places in the country. What grocery stores were in Harlem in 1995? What grocery stores are in Harlem today? The suburbs is where the amenities have been for the better part of half a century. It's not until our urban areas were "rediscovered" that people began to realize the severe extent to which many of these neighborhoods have been underserved.
The ironic thing is that most people want to live in the city to be within close proximity of "amenities," but historically our most urban areas have been the most amenity-deprived places in the country. What grocery stores were in Harlem in 1995? What grocery stores are in Harlem today? The suburbs is where the amenities have been for the better part of half a century. It's not until our urban areas were "rediscovered" that people began to realize the severe extent to which many of these neighborhoods have been underserved.
The ironic thing is that most people want to live in the city to be within close proximity of "amenities," but historically our most urban areas have been the most amenity-deprived places in the country. What grocery stores were in Harlem in 1995? What grocery stores are in Harlem today? The suburbs is where the amenities have been for the better part of half a century. It's not until our urban areas were "rediscovered" that people began to realize the severe extent to which many of these neighborhoods have been underserved.
That all has everything to do with grocery stores being low margin businesses. They usually have to do a large volume which usually means a large footprint, which usually requires cheapish land. Cities work against this model unless people are willing to pay more or they are more high end where customers will purchase more expensive items (wine, cheese, imports, etc).
In the context of this thread, a grocery store seems pretty risky for a new mixed use building. I'm not surprised that there aren't more. Developers would rather have a bunch of 2,000 to 5,000 square foot businesses that can be easily replaced. I imagine that they'd need a major commitment from a grocery store to allocate so much space to one store.
That all has everything to do with grocery stores being low margin businesses. They usually have to do a large volume which usually means a large footprint, which usually requires cheapish land. Cities work against this model unless people are willing to pay more or they are more high end where customers will purchase more expensive items (wine, cheese, imports, etc).
In the context of this thread, a grocery store seems pretty risky for a new mixed use building. I'm not surprised that there aren't more. Developers would rather have a bunch of 2,000 to 5,000 square foot businesses that can be easily replaced. I imagine that they'd need a major commitment from a grocery store to allocate so much space to one store.
I think this has more to do with density. The area's that these grocery store's are locating in will have between 40,000-60,000 people per sq. feet in density of high income earners when completed which should be profitable for them. Now, if an area is high density low income, no this would not work. D.C. doesn't really have that in the core any more which explains the cashing in of grocery stores. Density plus high income equals a big ROI for these projects.
To-may-toes, to-mah-toes. People sure get their panties bunched when discussing arbitrary rankings!
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