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For myself I can definitely see 8K a year if we are counting the cost of fuel for BOTH of our vehicles over a year. However that figure is misleading. No matter how you get around you will have costs. For a true comparison you have to deduct the costs of other transportation from the amount you spend on your vehicle costs, then you will know what the car is costing you.
Since I live in a rural area with no public transportation this is really irrelevant to me. If it cost 8K or more, I have to get to work which is 20 miles away.
For myself I can definitely see 8K a year if we are counting the cost of fuel for BOTH of our vehicles over a year. However that figure is misleading. No matter how you get around you will have costs. For a true comparison you have to deduct the costs of other transportation from the amount you spend on your vehicle costs, then you will know what the car is costing you.
Since I live in a rural area with no public transportation this is really irrelevant to me. If it cost 8K or more, I have to get to work which is 20 miles away.
Okay.
It is certainly possible to spend less than that,
depending on What Car you drive, and how you use it
Have you seen this?, from above:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geologic
Here's how they driving costs were broken down amongst five income groups:
I am totally with you on this.
If you must drive. be frugal with your car use.
But remember YOU CHOSE to live and work where you are.
Your living arrangement is fully under your own control, there are options !
OP's comment on "Per Household" car cost - The Debate is not over IMHO
= see below:
The answer is:
+ To use less expensive and more fuel-efficient cars
+ To build efficient mass transit (and especially rail) and make it sustainable.
Mass rail can be sustainable, and require little or no subsidy if there is enough mixed use Density around the rail stations, and the area around the stations is well designed. Paradoxically, that may require moving the parking slightly away from the stations to make way for people, housing, and mixed use. (see the ST podcast on Transit .)
Other countries do this, and why can the US not do it too?
The average European uses only 1/3 as much oil per capita as the average American. We can do much better, but we have to move towards a less car dependent living arrangement - which I have been arguing tirelessly here, and elsewhere.
I think the figures about car cost are still being debated. It seems that one of the Mods changed the title of MY thread, but I do not necessarily agree that the figure is per household. When I have more time, I will muster my sources on this.
MY TWO RANTS - in #68 and #69 are heart-felt !!
and maybe important, and I hope people will flip back one page to read them !
I do not know of any mass transit systems, rail or otherwise, that are not heavily subsidized. Please provide a link that these systems are not subsidized in Europe, and fares in Europe.
Europe relies heavily on nuclear energy, something this country has pretty much rejected. But that's why their oil consumption is less, one reason anyway.
You may not agree that the figures are per household, but that is what your link says.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geologic
Okay.
It is certainly possible to spend less than that,
depending on What Car you drive, and how you use it
Have you seen this?, from above:
I am totally with you on this.
If you must drive. be frugal with your car use.
But remember YOU CHOSE to live and work where you are. Your living arrangement is fully under your own control, there are options !
Mass rail can be sustainable, and require little or no subsidy if there is enough mixed use Density around the rail stations, and the area around the stations is well designed.
That's an interesting theory, but not really borne out in practice. The NY subway system is heavily subsidized despite fulfilling all those conditions.
Quote:
Other countries do this, and why can the US not do it too?
The average European uses only 1/3 as much oil per capita as the average American. We can do much better, but we have to move towards a less car dependent living arrangement - which I have been arguing tirelessly here, and elsewhere.
It would appear that many people in the US don't see a need to rearrange their lives or their cities to fit the ideal of car-free living.
Quote:
MY TWO RANTS - in #68 and #69 are heart-felt !!
#69 isn't yours, so I assume you mean #67 and #68. It's too bad your rants are off base. Your rant in #67 suggests that the reason I'm left with a choice of a small and very expensive place within walking distance of work or a larger and less expensive place where my commute involves driving is due to there being very little public transport where I work. In Manhattan. Directly atop a subway station.
As for #68, make your point yourself or reference an article I can read. I'm not going to sit and listen to audio.
I never said I was unhappy with my living options. I am unhappy with winter, but not living where I drive a car. You couldn't pay me enough to live in a largely populated area. I lived in a suburb of Syracuse for a couple of years and even that was too crowded for me. I love living in a rural area.
I do not know of any mass transit systems, rail or otherwise, that are not heavily subsidized. Please provide a link that these systems are not subsidized in Europe, and fares in Europe.
In Europe?
You can search the web for that as easily as I acn - I live in Hong Kong.
The Mass Transit system here is run by the MTR Corporation
Here's their profit from 2011:
xx
And their secrets are :
+ Density, especially around the transport stations
+ Using property development around the stations, to capture profits to pay
+ Running a highly efficient and on-time service (best in the world, probably)
I will ASK AGAIN... and again, and again !!!!!!!!!
That people LISTEN TO the strong towns podcast, to hear what an expert
says about the shortcomings of the US transit model.
#69 isn't yours, so I assume you mean #67 and #68.
...
As for #68, make your point yourself or reference an article I can read. I'm not going to sit and listen to audio.
How can we have a discussion, if you refuse to listen to the evidence?.
(I put these things on when I am walking around, or in the background when I am researching on the web. I have become pretty good at multi-tasking. Maybe others are not used to that. But I find the ST podcasts interesting an invaluable for understanding the challenges that we facing in improving our communities.)
Okay.
It is certainly possible to spend less than that,
depending on What Car you drive, and how you use it
Exactly.
The numbers I'm seeing make some pretty ridiculous assumptions--particularly in the purchase price of a vehicle, the financing, and the length of ownership. (Not to mention that some states don't have a personal property tax on cars.)
My mother paid cash for a three year old pre-owned Toyota Camry with about 30K miles on it four years ago. She averages about 3500 miles a year--to the doctor, church groceries.
Her registration is about $50 a year. She spends about $550 a year on gas, $30 on an oil change. She hasn't had to have any work done on it other than a new battery last year, which my brother put in for her. She will likely be in assisted living with the car gone before it needs anything further. Her insurance is about $600 a year.
As I see it, she's spending less than $1500 a year on car ownership. At 80 years old, she's not concerned with how much she'd be making in interest if that money was in the bank. If she didn't have the car and had to rely on the local on demand transit she's be paying $7 a trip, which would end up costing her more than the car does.
I never said I was unhappy with my living options. I am unhappy with winter, but not living where I drive a car. You couldn't pay me enough to live in a largely populated area. I lived in a suburb of Syracuse for a couple of years and even that was too crowded for me. I love living in a rural area.
Okay, that's fine.
But be prepared for a big deterioration in road conditions in the future, as our society finds it can no longer afford to maintain them. If I was you, I would start planning for this.
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