For Those Doubting Express Lane Projects Pay for Themselves & More... (issues, difference)

[cwkimbro]

I guess we need to always write "atlanta" into the subject line that we are looking for examples across the nation, so we can have a discussion about Atlanta without the post being moved.

I sort of it get, but I'm pretty sure architect's intention was looking at pre-existing outside examples to discuss Atlanta's on-going express lane building campaigns when we can't tell if the long-term income is there.

[newgensandiego]

Originally Posted by architect77

I realize the toll prices can get much steeper in the D.C. region.

Virginia's I-66 Express Lanes, can cost a single driver $44 for a single trip in the morning. (They don't want single occupancy vehicles in these lanes period).

But I was astounded at how much cash just the I-66 Express Lanes generated each month.

Around $2.5 million per month for this short distance inside the Beltway that only collects for 4 hours in the morning heading East, and 4 hours heading West in the afternoon.

That's $30 million per year for one Express Lane project.

Virginia also manages Express Lanes on I-95, I-395 & I-495, all very heavily traveled.

Subtract the maintenance of the pavement and the electronic tolling equipment and operations, and that's still quite a lot of money....

to pay for the construction costs and afterwards other projects.

The Express Lanes here will be ugly but will pay for themselves and afterwards fund other projects around the state.

Just to clarify a few items:

• VDOT does want [tolled] SOVs because they opened the corridor up to them. Before you either were HOV, bus, or electric car. They decided to allow SOVs and price them based on demand. This generates revenue for other corridor projects (including transit investments) and, believe it or not, can increase corridor throughput while managing demand.
• The average commuter pays no where close to $44 for a single trip (average is ~$7 WB and $4 EB). Mentioning the 99.9th percentile of costs is unhelpful and misleading, and is one of the reasons the I-66 had so much local backlash. People/media fixated on it too much. If you really are an advocate of toll roads, then you aren't helping your cause by using misleading information. Going the full length of the corridor at the most congested minute of the month is irrelevant to literally everyone.
• $30 million is good for a project that didn't require a lot of infrastructure, but is really not much for a project that includes construction of new lanes and other major improvements.

[cwkimbro]

Hey newgensandiego,

Thanks for your input.

The only thing I would spot out is $30m/year is a good bit over time. What is happening is is projects are being paid for by the state and then income from the whole system is being used to help pay for the next project and/or combination of bond financing for a project.

So if a single lane on one corridor generates $30m/year, it represents $600m over 20 years which is within a realistic period between major capital investments for a corridor before the next major modification. There is a great deal $30m/year can do.

In Atlanta's case we started with an HOV2+ conversion to HOT/HOV3+. That project now at maturity after being open for a number of years is generating about $15m in 2017.

It won't build the system, but since its implementation and the time they will add lanes to it will be about 25-30 years. That's $375m-$450m to put into that future modification on that corridor.

Now that is a simplistic view and all the money of many corridors goes into one pot and they're building some expensive projects not producing money yet now, but I wouldn't discount $30m/year too much.


The original intention Georgia started with was to try to fund 50% when the network is built out. I don't think they will achieve that, but the funding back into capital costs is significant.

[ddm2k]

I see the digital toll prices (assuming they change) but always seem to witness them during non-peak times. What's the highest rates you guys see, exit-to-exit?

[Hemlock140]

Here in the Seattle area, now that most people are working from home, the tolled "hot lanes" that cost as much as $10 at commute times are setting empty with very little revenue coming in. The regular lanes that used to be bumper-to-bumper are moving at well over the speed limits all day. Should employers decide to extend or make working from home permanent, those tolling systems will never be paid for.

[cwkimbro]

That's a good point.

Short-term revenue shortfalls are going to happen.

I don't think we need to worry about the long-term, as long as your in a growing region. Even if some employers keep work at home permanent, new people are just going to take up the capacity as the city grows and/or people shift where they live given the extra commute capacity.

[ddm2k]

Originally Posted by Hemlock140

Here in the Seattle area, now that most people are working from home, the tolled "hot lanes" that cost as much as $10 at commute times are setting empty with very little revenue coming in. The regular lanes that used to be bumper-to-bumper are moving at well over the speed limits all day. Should employers decide to extend or make working from home permanent, those tolling systems will never be paid for.

What happened to all the economic theorists crying "supply and demand" in response to price increases? No comment on the LACK of price decreases when no one's using the hot lanes?

[cwkimbro]

Originally Posted by ddm2k

What happened to all the economic theorists crying "supply and demand" in response to price increases? No comment on the LACK of price decreases when no one's using the hot lanes?

Well I can't speak for all HOT lanes, but most of them have a somewhat automated system that rises and decreases based on how much traffic is in the lane.

In off peak times when things are flowing it gets fairly cheap. The problem is few people use them, if they don't need. If the free lanes are flowing, no one wants/needs to pay anything at all.

When things are freeflowing, many people prefer to be in general purpose lanes since there is more freedom in passing opportunities.

In Atlanta there are two standards for minimum tolls, one is $0.10/mile and the other is $0.50 flat-fee toll regardless of the distance.

Then from there they go up as traffic in the lane increases.

For Atlanta, you can go here and see the live Toll rates: https://www.peachpass.com/real-time-toll-rates/

As of this writing as 12:30 at night, They are either closed or at a flat $0.50 toll.

A normal rush hour probably brings $4-$8 tolls depending on when and traffic loads. A bad day in the corridor and more people try to use the HOT lane the price spikes into the teens for the entire corridor.

[Hemlock140]

Originally Posted by ddm2k

What happened to all the economic theorists crying "supply and demand" in response to price increases? No comment on the LACK of price decreases when no one's using the hot lanes?

No way that would happen, if anything they will raise the prices. They are still trying to cover the initial cost for all of the construction, electronics, and "good to go" software.

[ddm2k]

I see signs stating it's illegal to cross a double white. Does this also apply to people with a pass already in the lane, merging OUT of the express lane? Do they also have to wait until a dotted / entrance?