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Everything is so polarized these days! We shouldn't have to choose between sprawl and high rise apartment buildings. (which is the position most of the anti-density folks seem to take, not necessarily the OP) Let's focus more on "missing middle housing". https://missingmiddlehousing.com/
I don't think density has to be much more expensive than sprawl. As others have said above, density is more expensive, primarily because there isn't enough of it to meet demand.
And, for those who don't want to share a wall, I think the old streetcar suburb model is a good compromise to achieve greater density, and still have your own four walls.
If you build more and more high density dwellings, then the supply will outstretch demand, and bring the prices down. ...
False start. Not all housing is the same. As many of the other posters already stated, folks seeking housing aren't all seeking just any housing especially when they have choices.
What you are trying to sell is shared walls, ceiling/floor, smells, noises, no yard, shared amenities (if any),and undoubtedly involuntary membership condo/HOA living. The last on that list is hard to escape anywhere but the rest can be avoided. At most you might succeed in reducing some demand for high cost dense housing - but you won't even make a dent in nor discourage the market for the housing everyone else prefers.
.......Part of the problem is many people prefer NOT to share their living structure with other people. They don't want to have to worry if the neighbor keeps things clean so there are not insects or vermin. They don't want to smell whatever the neighbor is cooking for dinner. They don't want to have to listen to the neighbors choice of TV show or music and they definitely don't want a ring side seat to a family fight. This is especially true now when more people are working from home and/or educating the kids at home........
You just described my family and pretty much everyone we know to a T.
Location: East of Seattle since 1992, 615' Elevation, Zone 8b - originally from SF Bay Area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marv95
Why does someone need 2000-3000 sqft? You're assuming most people have families. Not in this era where it's costly to have and raise a kid.
Streets were originally made for people before WWII. Time to bring those back instead of simping over car culture which has done more harm than good in cities.
Costly or not, while in general the birth rate is down, here the schools are bursting at the seems. The elementary near us was torn down and a new one rebuild, but already in the second year it's become overcrowded with 600 students. The four homes sold near us recently have been millennials with 2 or 3 kids,
and all of the new development homes in our area are selling fast with at least 3,200 sf.
High density housing is so expensive in North America and Australia, because it is scarce. The demand is much higher than the supply. And the supply is so low due to regulations that protect low density housing. The recent measures that you are talking about are still not enough.
And the population density of Edmonton metropolitan area is just 75 people per square km. Melbourne metropolitan area has a density of 496 people per square km, which is about the same as San Francisco (492). So Edmonton metro has an extremely low population density and Melbourne is much higher, but still only average for a large metropolis. For comparison, New York metropolitan has a population density of 836 people per square km and Tokyo metro has 3,198 people per square km. My hometown Cologne, Germany has a population density of 1,228 people per square km. The data is from the OECD. But the problem is not only the relatively low density in the cities itself, but the also the low density in other cities and the rural areas. Even if a city like San Francisco or Montreal has a relatively high population density for North American standards, since the rest of the country has such a low supply for high density housing, everyone who wants to live in high density places is flocking there and thus prices are exploding.
If the restrictions would be lifted and the supply would equal the demand, high density housing would be much cheaper, because it requires less resources (i.e. infrastructure) per capita than low density housing. The problem thus lays not in the concept of high density itself, but in the restrictions against it.
For the renter, the high density bigger cities do have less expensive apartments than some of the suburbs, where there are very few apartments available so the prices are high.
Cost is just part of the resistance to greater density, however. A large percentage of us just prefer their privacy, don't want to share a wall, ceiling of floor with strangers, and want a yard with room for kids to play, perhaps a garden or even pool. The current trend here is a bit of a compromise, 4,000 sf homes on 5,000 sf lots.
1. High density housing is much cheaper. It is artificial restriction of supply that drives up prices of high density housing in North America and Australia.
2. A large percentage wants to save money for housing and spend it on other things which are more important for them. And a large percentage wants walkable neighborhoods, wants to bike or use public transport instead of spending tons of money on a car and waste the environment. They want more social and cultural density, because they find excitement in it. And they don't want to mow the lawn, they just want to go to the park or city forest, which is maintained by city workers. Many don't need that much space. They like a minimalistic lifestyle. And others just love compact environments and buildings. Maybe they like the coziness. Noise and smells can occur, but aren't really something that occurs very often. 90% of the time it is quit, calm and good air quality in the high density place i live. I just like, that there are five grocery stores in a five minutes walking distance. I own a bicycle, that i can ride to the countryside at weekends, because the city is built this compact, that distances are short and the countryside is not built up with low density suburbs that restrict access to nature. As someone who lives in a high density city, i have probably made more adventures into nature than most people who live in low density areas. There is lots of space for children to play as well, like parks of playgrounds. If you need a garden for growing food and flowers you can easily find it. You just will not find giant useless empty laws like in sprawling suburbs. You can even grow food on your own balcony, no problem. And the public pool is better than any private pool, because it is bigger. Privacy is there in your apartment. For many people that is enough.
2000-3000 sq ft walkups? Anyone that can afford that will want elevator service.
Part of the problem is many people prefer NOT to share their living structure with other people. They don't want to have to worry if the neighbor keeps things clean so there are not insects or vermin. They don't want to smell whatever the neighbor is cooking for dinner. They don't want to have to listen to the neighbors choice of TV show or music and they definitely don't want a ring side seat to a family fight. This is especially true now when more people are working from home and/or educating the kids at home. Most if not all of these problems could be solved in multifamily buildings, but there is a cost. More solid construction, better ventilation systems larger units. But these improvements raise the cost of the units above what the consumer feels they are worth.
The reason there is sprawl is because it is cheaper for consumers to get what they want by spreading out than building more expensive denser alternatives.
Have you ever lived in a high density place? I am asking, because as someone who lives in a high density place these things are hardly reality for me. I see much more upsides in high density living than downsides. I am asking, why would anyone want to be sheltered in a low density residential neighborhood in the middle of nowhere (especially if you are working from home).
False start. Not all housing is the same. As many of the other posters already stated, folks seeking housing aren't all seeking just any housing especially when they have choices.
What you are trying to sell is shared walls, ceiling/floor, smells, noises, no yard, shared amenities (if any),and undoubtedly involuntary membership condo/HOA living. The last on that list is hard to escape anywhere but the rest can be avoided. At most you might succeed in reducing some demand for high cost dense housing - but you won't even make a dent in nor discourage the market for the housing everyone else prefers.
There are many aspects and things about high density housing, that are preferable over low density housing. It's more than just sharing walls. There is such a high demand for high density housing for some reason.
Residents of my house town in NW Washington complain about the high cost of renting and real estate. The city combats this by permitting 4 and 5 story apartments/condos replacing aging motels in the city. Among those on one street is a low income housing complex but the others are all market prices.
We are kinda stuck here, much like any coastal town between the bay and the mountains much like Seattle. There is no room for sprawl especially into very fertile farm land.
Yes, many of us endured living in cheap rentals while attending college so we were eager for our own four walls without listening to neighbors activities. We now live on rural acreage which is quiet and mostly dark at night except for the ex-suburbanite next door who thinks he needs to light up the neighborhood with spotlights on his trees and shrubs and along his driveway. There is a reason we planted an arborvitae hedge.
Higher density as practiced in the US doesn't work. It works in Europe, because Europe invested heavily in public transit. The US hasn't, so freeways and the approaches to freeways are now jammed from 2-3 hrs. prior to the start of the work day through to about 2-3 hrs. past 5 p.m. Even weekends have freeway crowding in some urban areas, because the cities and their suburbs have outgrown their streets and the freeways.
Too much density only puts more drivers on the roads. At a certain point, it becomes dysfunctional.
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