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Old 03-06-2012, 10:59 AM
 
Location: You Ta Zhou
870 posts, read 1,437,354 times
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As in, if the pioneers had never come to the state. I think that Utah would be kind of like Wyoming, with no real cities and a very low population. I'm pretty sure it would not be as interesting as the state is now. The politics of the few people in the state would lean more libertarian than they do now, but less socially conservative.

How do you think Utah would be different?
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Old 03-06-2012, 11:00 AM
 
Location: Formerly TX, UT and CT - Currently NC
484 posts, read 1,457,581 times
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I agree with you. I absolutely love Utah, and although we aren't Mormon, I think the moral compass of the Mormons are some of what helps keep the state clean, have a low crime rate, very family friendly, and well developed. Without that, I agree..it would probably be much like Wyoming, Montana, and that general area.
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Old 03-06-2012, 11:02 AM
 
28,900 posts, read 49,179,090 times
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Less blonde. More empty.
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Old 03-06-2012, 12:02 PM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
13,145 posts, read 20,406,781 times
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Interesting "what if?" idea!

I'd bet Utah would be far less populated.... Utah and Salt Lake valleys would be the world famous Wasatch National Park, home of the last truly wild free range buffalo herd and the world's biggest Bonneville Cutthroat trout in the very beautiful, crystal clear Lake Utah and Cottonwood river (in other dimensions known as the Jordan River). There would be several former ghost towns ringing the park that have become quite popular tourist destinations; none more popular and exclusive than Tooele.

Without such a remote and opportune location to solidify their culture and presence, Mormonism would have been assimilated into the mainstream much earlier and possibly even died out.
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Old 03-06-2012, 01:11 PM
 
Location: God's Gift to Mankind for flying anything
5,577 posts, read 12,001,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
Mormonism would have been assimilated into the mainstream much earlier and possibly even died out.
Earlier *assimilation* ? yes ...
They did choose to stop there, because of the *remoteness*
*leave us alone please* attitude then !
Died out ? no .

Would it be less populated ?
May be not.
The fact that a lot of people think The Church owns everything and runs everything, keeps those who think so away ...
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Old 03-06-2012, 02:11 PM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
13,145 posts, read 20,406,781 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irman View Post
Earlier *assimilation* ? yes ...
They did choose to stop there, because of the *remoteness*
*leave us alone please* attitude then !
Died out ? no .

Would it be less populated ?
May be not.
The fact that a lot of people think The Church owns everything and runs everything, keeps those who think so away ...
Huh?

Mormonism faced a crisis after J.S. was murdered; the Church didn't actually get forced out west as official LDS "history" teaches. In fact, the LDS church fractured into two major splinter groups, one of which was lead by Brigham Young and moved West, and the other which stayed and became the Reorganized LDS church.

As history played out, it was Brigham's splinter group that did the best and claimed the title as the "real" LDS church thanks to the location of Salt Lake City (remoteness from civilization helped them formulate and solidify the "mormon way" without distractions and the region is rich in natural resources), the intensive planning and cooperation of the Mormons, polygamy itself (which made LOTS of new mormons very quickly) and missionary efforts in Europe. None of that would have been possible anywhere else in realistic migration distance. It's is completely fair to say the LDS would never have done as well as it has without Utah... and perhaps not made it at all.
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Old 03-06-2012, 02:40 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
24,102 posts, read 24,553,279 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
Huh?

Mormonism faced a crisis after J.S. was murdered; the Church didn't actually get forced out west as official LDS "history" teaches. In fact, the LDS church fractured into two major splinter groups, one of which was lead by Brigham Young and moved West, and the other which stayed and became the Reorganized LDS church.
Right. The Mormons who left Nauvoo in the dead of winter as they watched their temple being burned to the ground, and hauled their meager possessions 1300 miles across the Great Plains just did so because it sounded like a ton of fun.

Quote:
As history played out, it was Brigham's splinter group that did the best and claimed the title as the "real" LDS church thanks to the location of Salt Lake City (remoteness from civilization helped them formulate and solidify the "mormon way" without distractions and the region is rich in natural resources), the intensive planning and cooperation of the Mormons, polygamy itself (which made LOTS of new mormons very quickly) and missionary efforts in Europe. None of that would have been possible anywhere else in realistic migration distance.
"Brigham's splinter group" -- the group that claimed the title of the "real" LDS Church was also the one that pretty much all of the LDS leadership went with, whereas the other group was comprised primarily of Joseph Smith's own family members and their sympathizers." To portray the group who followed Brigham Young to the Utah Territory as a "splinter group" at all is extremely misleading. It's roughly equivalent of calling the Roman Catholic Church a "splinter group" that broke off of the "real" Christian Church back in 1054.

Quote:
It's is completely fair to say the LDS would never have done as well as it has without Utah... and perhaps not made it at all.
I can go along with you here. Mormonism would likely not have survived under other circumstances.
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Old 03-06-2012, 03:00 PM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
13,145 posts, read 20,406,781 times
Reputation: 14042
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Right. The Mormons who left Nauvoo in the dead of winter as they watched their temple being burned to the ground, and hauled their meager possessions 1300 miles across the Great Plains just did so because it sounded like a ton of fun.
So, if it really was a "leave town NOW or die" situation, why did Sidney Rigdon, Emma Smith and her (and Joseph's) sons and all their followers just kinda stay at home and kept their property while the rest fled for their lives? They were ALL Mormon still... Admit it Katz, the church version of the story has been "dramatized somewhat".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
"Brigham's splinter group" -- the group that claimed the title of the "real" LDS Church was also the one that pretty much all of the LDS leadership went with, whereas the other group was comprised primarily of Joseph Smith's own family members and their sympathizers." To portray the group who followed Brigham Young to the Utah Territory as a "splinter group" at all is extremely misleading. It's roughly equivalent of calling the Roman Catholic Church a "splinter group" that broke off of the "real" Christian Church back in 1054.
As I recall it was Brigham and company who left "Zion" while the reorganized church remained. That sounds very "splintery" to me. That is also nothing like your example.

Of course there is another more religious side to the story; supernatural authority is very important to the mormons and the claim is that Brigham's group had it...

....but the reorganzied church claims the same thing except that they were the recipients of supernatural authority... Imagine that.

Look, I have ancestors that were there too; it's true they suffered great injustice, went through stuff I probably wouldn't have been able to handle and built a "kingdom" of their own from the ground up with blood, sweat and tears, but it doesn't change the fact that todays "official church version" of events is just as mythological as it is historical. Anyone who delves into the history can see that.

But I can't blame them too much, because like the Jews the story just isn't as grand without an "exodus", and such a story is far more meaningful to believers than the still interesting but less magical truth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I can go along with you here.
We sometimes agree. Utah IS a "pretty great state"

Last edited by Chango; 03-06-2012 at 04:28 PM..
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Old 03-07-2012, 12:48 AM
 
Location: West Jordan, UT
973 posts, read 1,958,346 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasBlonde View Post
I agree with you. I absolutely love Utah, and although we aren't Mormon, I think the moral compass of the Mormons are some of what helps keep the state clean, have a low crime rate, very family friendly, and well developed. Without that, I agree..it would probably be much like Wyoming, Montana, and that general area.
I agree. That is not said negatively in regards to WY & MT.

I love Utah, we also are not LDS, love the state. It is clean, lower crime (read 'real' crime) , family friendly, neighborhood friendly.

I love the sunshine & outdoors too. =)
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Old 03-08-2012, 03:16 PM
 
Location: PA/FL/UT
1,294 posts, read 2,957,079 times
Reputation: 521
More like Nevada or Wyoming?
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