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I've been to Sprouts and TJ's, and Natural Grocers blows them both away. Giant selection of supplements and vitamins. Best prices on organic/Non-GMO groceries out there. I've been into organics since '97 and have shopped many places but have always kept coming back to Natural Grocers. Best prices and selection.
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The whole "snow police" thing... is it true that you get a ticket if you don't plow your driveway and the sidewalk?
Seems like many areas, not just in UT, are that way. When I lived in Colorado, a couple of areas were the same way. It was quite infuriating.
Hi Coffeequeen. Yes, we homeschool now. We started in public school in California, originally, but pulled him half-way through first grade. When we moved to Arizona, one of the most homeschool-friendly states in the U.S., we decided to continue to homeschool and we all enjoy it (myself, husband, and our son).
Thank you all for your input and detailed answers! We really appreciate the information, especially the names of actual places or sites to check out.
On a side note... can anyone recommend a good property management company? We've had a very difficult time getting anyone to call us back. Maybe it's our area code? We move in three weeks and CANNOT find anywhere to live! We need a house with a fenced yard for our small mix-breed dog, and prefer a fireplace.... and would like to keep it in the $1200 range. Or any realtors on this site that can help? We just sold our home, but want to rent for a year or two to allow us to figure out where we want to live in the Ogden area.
Well, we moved here in January, just days before a huge snow storm. I had a few weeks before I had to start my new job, so we settled in for the storm and enjoyed the absolute beauty of it. It couldn't have been any prettier. Between the snow, the mountains, the views, and all the trees... we were in heaven. We had a difficult time driving anywhere, since we have a two-wheel-drive, but they clear the roads really fast... so we managed. We also had a hard time finding gloves, snow boots, snow pants... even Wal-Mart was sold out. NOTE: If you're planning to relocate to a snowy area, try to buy your clothes beforehand. I would never have thought we wouldn't be able to find snow gloves!
Here's the disclaimer... The following are our experiences, views, opinions, and observations, and I know that people will jump on here and defend the Mormons and their religion... and that's their right. But, I also have the right to share what we have experienced as a family. We're friendly, wave and smile at our neighbors (even when we're busy since it takes all of 2-1/2 seconds), we're quiet and polite, we keep a nice yard, and don't let our dog bark.
Do we like Ogden? No. Do we plan to leave as soon as we are able? Yes. We're not Mormon, and I know that a lot of people have their views on the Mormon culture. I really think it depends on where you live, literally, from street to street, ward to ward. In my area, there are nothing but 1950's homes with some of the original owners, and their kids have apparently bought homes on the same street. We thought someone would stop by and say "hello" and "welcome to the neighborhood"... nothing. No one has even invited us to church. No one waves. They literally look at you and don't even smile. We were driving down our street, and there was a group of men standing in a group talking, we were going really slow since there were kids playing and we were getting ready to pull into our driveway. They looked up and I gave them a big friendly smile and waved... if looks could kill, we'd be dead. I know they saw me because they were close enough that they could have reached out and touched our truck. My stomach did a flip-flop... I had never experienced anything like that. They just stared and frowned, watching us go by. We felt shocked and really bummed out. My little boy said, "Mommy, they seemed kind of mad. Were they mad at us?"
When you go shopping, the clerks will be super nice everywhere you go... but that's because they are being paid to be nice to their customers. I mean, top-notch customer service! But, if you are in a grocery store or where ever, no one talks, no one smiles... no eye contact... it's really very different. Now, the nicest people I run into are all tattoos and dreadlocks and piercings... no kidding.
We have never felt so out-of-place and have not felt at home here, at all. It's a palpable feeling. You know you're not wanted... like you're an invader. I'm not here to change anything or corrupt anyone... We're Christian for cryin' out loud! I moved here knowing that this was a Mormon state/area/town, but I had no idea I would feel like an outsider. Some people will say "Oh, they just belong to their ward and do their own thing, and since you don't belong to the ward, they don't bother starting a relationship with you."or"Oh, they are just so busy with church stuff that they just don't have time...." I've heard all the excuses. I've lived all over the place... even in a different country, and have never experienced anything like this. It's like the Twilight Zone. Maybe if we lived closer to SLC, it may be different, but I work with ALL Mormons, and a few are from out-of-state... and even they say that the culture here is very weird.... even for them... and wonder how were're coping. The only non-Mormon I work with grew up here and said it's really no different even in Salt Lake. You have your little pockets of diversity, but it's almost like they are trying too hard to be part of the subculture.
There are things to get used to.... like the liquor laws. You can only buy 3.2 beer in the grocery store. You cannot buy wine in the grocery store. You can only by liquor at the State Liquor Store, where you by beer by the bottle at $2+ per beer. Wine and liquor is double what you might pay in another state, and sometimes even more. Nothing is refrigerated. The State Store is closed on Sundays, and does not open until 11 am on the other days. This doesn't bother me as badly as it bothers my husband, who feels it is "a freedom issue" where the religion runs the state. He keeps asking me when we're going to move back to America!
We researched a lot before we came here. We have family south of Salt Lake. We felt we were prepared for the culture shock. Nothing could have prepared us. We would not have moved here if we would have known what it was going to be like. The culture is very segregated, the home prices are outrageous (especially for what you get), the newspapers are unreadable, the people drive using "snow rules" all year long.... I think, at this point, everything "different" is upsetting. I normally embrace the different things I've experienced where ever I've lived... it's what makes living someplace new exciting and fun... to learn something new... different cultures, accents, foods, entertainment.... this is very different.
Ogden itself is kind of backwards. I can tell you that the Mexicans I've met here feel like second class citizens. When we first moved here and needed someone to snow-blow our driveway, the guy that showed up was Hispanic... super nice guy, second generation American... started talking once he found out we had just moved here from Arizona. He handed my husband his business card and the name of the business is a typical white guy name, but the owner's name is a Hispanic name. My husband looked confused, and the guy said "I wasn't getting any business with my real name, so I changed it and business is booming. That's the way it is here." Even the way I've overheard people talk, is nothing like what I'd hear in California, Texas, or Arizona.... borderline racist comments... like Hispanics or if you don't look clean-cut (i.e. tattoos, dreads, etc.) you're less than.
They say there's a "revitalization effort" going on downtown... and I've heard from people who have lived here all their lives (a couple of the people I work with), and they say they made it look nice, but did nothing about the crime. There are, literally, junkies doing drug deals right on the street in broad daylight, with families walking around. There is one little area on and near 25th that looks like it has potential, but it feels very fabricated... not hip or "the place to be", but an "meh" place to grab lunch if you happen to be in the area. The buildings are incredible, but even the "museum" in the old Union Station is a huge joke. I can't believe we actually paid to walk through it. We won't go downtown, now, unless we have to... and my husband is armed. No kidding. You would think there would be a police or security presence, but there is none.
I already know someone is going to chime in and say "Well have you tried this.... or that?" Put it this way, when my battery died on my truck, instead of going to a neighbor like I normally would, I paid nearly $100 for someone from a tow truck company to come to my house so I wouldn't have to knock on a neighbor's door. I did not feel that I could do that here. So, if you're not Mormon, and if you're not super into outdoor activities and part of that group, think long and hard about moving here. It's very, very weird. Saying that, I know I'm going to catch a lot of flak... but that's the honest truth. If you've had a better or different experience, then you're lucky. We kept saying, "Let's give it a year.." but we already know we're never going to fit in or feel at home here. I'm normally not a negative person, but this place has really weighed down our family. It's a bummer. We thought this would be a nice place to raise our son.... a place with a reputation for high morals, good family values, conservative, it's beautiful, you can grow a kick-butt garden, four seasons... and all these things are true... but the other stuff outweighs the good... not all that glitters is gold.
Last edited by MamaGrace; 07-06-2017 at 02:48 PM..
Reason: type-o
I grew up Mormon, in Oakland, CA, and Utah Mormons are VERY different. When I moved to SLC ten years ago, I met other people who had recently moved to Utah (from many different states - I worked at a school) and they felt the same way. They were Mormons and were going from ward to ward, trying to find one where they felt like they fit in, but never quite felt welcome.
I've written about this before. Short version - they don't have to try, and their activities really DO revolve around their ward/church. Growing up, as Mormons, we were encouraged to be friendly and welcoming, especially if someone showed an interest in the church. But in Utah, where the Mormon culture is so strong you're going to know about the church whether you want to or not, there's no need for Mormons to be friendly to the non-Mormons - at least not to encourage anyone to attend church.
And activities really DO revolve around the ward/church. If you were Mormon, you'd go to church, you'd participate in all those activities, and before you knew it, you'd have new friends - in relief society, in priesthood, in nursery/primary's (depending on the age of your son). So someone new moves in, and people in the neighborhood expect to see them at their local ward. If they don't, then that means they're either not Mormon, or they attend another ward. And why make friends with new people who you don't know, and who you'll never hang out with because between church activities, family activities, and work, you don't have any more time?
That last question wasn't sarcastic. Seriously, if my life revolved around one particular thing, why would I go out of my way to make friends with strangers who had nothing to do with that particular thing? That said, I'd still wave at a neighbor, or smile at someone who smiled at me (unless it was someone who seemed creepy).
I felt like my local ward was really unfriendly to me (in SLC) - I stopped going to church when I was 18, but I let my daughter attend with my parents in CA, and when we moved to UT, my daughter was old enough to attend on her own. When I attended the ward Christmas party, where my daughter was playing Mary in the Nativity, NO ONE came up to me, no one introduced themselves, and when I tried to start conversations with other people, they'd give me monosyllabic answers and then literally turn their backs on me to start a conversation with someone else. Incredibly rude. It was a shock to me, given the expectation of friendliness that had been cultivated from growing up in the Mormon church in California.
Ogden is supposed to be a little better than surrounding areas, due to the school there. SLC is definitely the best area in Utah (for diversity and non-Mormons). But it really can change from neighborhood to neighborhood or street to street. If you moved two streets over, your experience might be totally different.
Still, even in "less Mormon" areas, the Mormon-ness is pervasive. Even things like having open houses (real estate) on Saturdays instead of Sundays. Or all the restaurants and services that close on Sundays. Or the exceptionally stupid liquor laws (I don't even drink, but so many of the laws here are still stupid).
If anyone wants to disagree with how pervasive the Mormon church is in Utah, consider: 'the Church.' People try to say that Utah is less Mormon than the records indicate (because lapsed Mormons will still be on the record books but may not consider themselves Mormon anymore), but I don't know anywhere else in the US where you could say 'the Church' to a stranger, and have that stranger not wonder what church you're freakin' talking about. It is definitely not a normal experience in the US to have millions of people in one area instantly know what religion you're talking about without having to mention the actual name of the religion.
Not having grown up here, and developed non-Mormon friendships early in school (or longtime Mormon friendships that didn't rely on my continued attendance at church), it does feel a little claustrophobic. I can't wait to move - I've been saying that since I got here. I originally moved because it was so much more affordable, but the housing costs are going sky-high now. And pay has not increased in a commiserate fashion. Once my daughter graduates, and I've got more money saved up - I am out of here. (I also really, really hate the weather, but that's because I was spoiled by the almost perfect weather in the Bay Area - cool and foggy, thankyouverymuch.)
Whenever non-Mormons on city-data talk about moving here, I always worry a little for them. If they LOVE the outdoors, or they're exceptionally outgoing and willing to put a lot of time into trying many different avenues to make friends, or if they're college-aged, then it won't be so bad. But if you're not into outdoor activities, and you're a little beyond college age, and you don't want to have to try really hard to make friends - and if you're not willing to move to a few different locations to find the right neighborhood - then it can be bad. All of that is amplified by living outside of SLC (I've known multiple non-Mormons who moved to UT, not in SLC, and left after a year).
Anyhow, there is culture shock - whether it hits you over the head or creeps up on you, it's still there. I'm sorry things didn't work out well for you. Hopefully you'll be able to transfer to a new state. If not, then you really might consider trying to break your lease and move to a different neighborhood. If your job can transfer but must stay within the state, try to move to SLC. Hopefully the next place you find will be better.
EDIT: By the way - the only people I know of who home-schooled in Utah did so because they were uber-Mormon. Like, to the point where other Mormons even thought they were extreme. We're talking bible studies as history class and sometimes science class, etc. They only stopped home-schooling when a private school opened up that basically taught their kids in the same uber-religious way they did at home. My point being, that home-schooling your child probably isolated you even further. At least at school, your kid would more easily make friends, and you could then talk to other parents. In home school, I'm thinking the religious disparity (you not being Mormon) will be more pronounced than it would be at a public school, at least in terms of joining home-schooling groups.
Last edited by MisfitBanana; 07-06-2017 at 03:39 PM..
>>>snip<<<No one waves.They literally look at you and don't even smile. We were driving down our street, and there was a group of men standing in a group talking, we were going really slow since there were kids playing and we were getting ready to pull into our driveway. They looked up and I gave them a big friendly smile and waved... if looks could kill, we'd be dead. I know they saw me because they were close enough that they could have reached out and touched our truck. My stomach did a flip-flop... I had never experienced anything like that. They just stared and frowned, watching us go by. We felt shocked and really bummed out. My little boy said, "Mommy, they seemed kind of mad. Were they mad at us?"
When you go shopping, the clerks will be super nice everywhere you go... but that's because they are being paid to be nice to their customers. I mean, top-notch customer service! But, if you are in a grocery store or where ever, no one talks, no one smiles... no eye contact... it's really very different. Now, the nicest people I run into are all tattoos and dreadlocks and piercings... no kidding.
We have never felt so out-of-place and have not felt at home here, at all. It's a palpable feeling. You know you're not wanted... like you're an invader.
Sorry about your experience. Also sorry to say, but you're spot on. Here's a cut-and-paste from a post I made on another thread (the whole thread is here, it makes a good read):
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This thread, and many of the posts are both fascinating and remarkable, both good and bad. After spending a lot more time here now, and in various parts of town, I thought I'd add a few observations of my own. Please take it as observations, not a critique. Here goes.
I actually think the OP really is on to something. I've been paying close attention to what the OP describes. However, I really don't think that race is the underlying issue - I'm a very typical AngloWhiteMan and have actually had a number of very similar experiences.
I'll boil down my observations to this: When somebody is in a situation where interpersonal interaction is either expected or required, such as any kind of service or sales person, then people are very, very helpful and friendly. However, if there's no specific connection then there's a very strong tendency for people to be remote and standoffish. It's as if there's a strong cultural or social norm that you're just not supposed to talk to strangers. This isn't universal of course (what is?), but it's a consistent and prevailing social behavior.
I can cite several specific and repeated examples.
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In supermarket lines there's no interaction, eye contact or small talk between people. It's the exact opposite of what happens in NY lines or the south where perfect strangers chat each other up all the time.
In the NE when somebody lets you cut into a line of traffic it's expected that the cutter-inner give a little wave to the person that let them if they're at all visible. That doesn't seem to happen here. Again, this isn't 100%, but it's the case far more often than not. I mentioned this observation to a couple SLC friends who validated it - until I mentioned it they took it as the norm because here it is!
Pedestrians avoid eye contact. I've yet to see somebody look up and smile at a passer by.
Now, I can't interpret the causes, but this stuff really does seem to be the norm. But it really doesn't bother me. I've lived elsewhere and experienced all kinds of weird stuff. That said, it's easy to imagine how somebody could be bothered by it. It's equally easy to see that it also has nothing to do with the other person's behavior, such as the OP's.
Sound familiar? Well, it's real and every newcomer experiences it to varying degrees. How troublesome it is depends on you - age, situation, kids, etc. Here's my read on it FWIW.
First, I don't buy the "people are too busy and don't need new friends" excuse that keeps pooping up here. Baloney. This is a learned cultural/social behavior. Other parts of the country are busy too, but how people interact with strangers doesn't have a thing to do with how busy they are.
Second, I've noticed that lifetime locals in any culture tend to be blind to how their local culture is perceived by newcomers. It's their "normal" after all, so it isn't noticed. It's the newcomers that DO notice or locals that have lived elsewhere and returned (and I don't mean on a mission).
Finally, to the meat of it: The amateur social scientist in me has noticed that this culture reflects a discomfort with and aversion to social interactions with strangers that there's no otherwise reason to be interacting with. So, you go to a restaurant and the server is friendly. Yet if you passed that same server on the street they'd avoid eye contact. My friends and family have come to call this the "eye forward" affect. In traffic people avoid eye contact with other motorists. On the sidewalk they avoid eye contact. In the supermarket line they avoid interaction. My theory is that those who grew up in this culture take it as normal and then so do their kids - the kids see the behavior modeled by their parents, do likewise, and so it goes. Something to keep in mind - it's not Mormons against you, those same people do the exact same thing to everybody they don't know, Mormon or not. And, most importent, since that's the culture they expect it and aren't offended! So at least it's not personal.
What to do? Make sure that you live someplace with enough transplants to form a social circle. Whether your neighborhood in Ogden can be that place or not, I don't know. Regardless, understand that it's not personal and these same people are doing the same thing to each other (i.e., to al the people they encounter that they don't know).
I'll wrap up with a funny anecdote. My living room is contemporary with a wall of glass facing the street (and mountains). People walk, ride and jog up and down the street day and night. I have a lot of house guests and they all immediately comment on the lack of curtains. I tell them that curtains aren't necessary - nobody looks in, everybody just looks straight ahead. They all say I'm crazy, but after a week or so of waiting to catch somebody looking around they all agree - everybody really does look straight ahead! Where I'm from people are always looking around and checking things out. A huge window into somebody's house would draw immediate stares. But not in Utah!
Last edited by kletter1mann; 07-07-2017 at 08:16 PM..
Reason: fix broken [quote]s
Thank you MisfitBanana and kletter1mann. When I posted my feelings about Ogden, and Utah in general, I was feeling especially low. I was dreading any comments that were sure to follow, but I appreciate both of you sharing your insight and opinions.
Kletter1mann - Spot on! I, too, love to study people (it's what I focused on for my master's degree) and wonder what makes them do the things they do. This place has been challenging, since I can't quite put my finger on what is so very strange here. It defies logic. There's no other way to say it... it's just plain strange. What you mentioned about the people looking straight ahead... wow... so true! We leave our curtains open all day, pulled back from a huge picture window that looks out onto the street and at the beautiful mountain. No one ever looks toward the house, even when I'm in the front yard. I kind of wait to see if someone will glance my way, so I can smile and wave. Nada. We have noticed another thing... most people leave their curtains completely closed all day and night. Even when the weather is gorgeous, they're all buttoned-up tight. Again, maybe that's just my street?
I guess I'll never quite figure it out, and don't plan to stick around to try. I've tried. I'm not a quitter, but I quit on Utah. They can have it. They won. Anyway, I truly appreciate both of you -- your kind words and honestly... you've given me a bit of sunshine in an otherwise smoggy day! Thank you, and I wish you both the very best. MisfitBanana, I hope you find a friendlier place too! I should have never left Texas....
Thank you MisfitBanana and kletter1mann. When I posted my feelings about Ogden, and Utah in general, I was feeling especially low. I was dreading any comments that were sure to follow, but I appreciate both of you sharing your insight and opinions.
Kletter1mann - Spot on! I, too, love to study people (it's what I focused on for my master's degree) and wonder what makes them do the things they do. This place has been challenging, since I can't quite put my finger on what is so very strange here. It defies logic. There's no other way to say it... it's just plain strange. What you mentioned about the people looking straight ahead... wow... so true! We leave our curtains open all day, pulled back from a huge picture window that looks out onto the street and at the beautiful mountain. No one ever looks toward the house, even when I'm in the front yard. I kind of wait to see if someone will glance my way, so I can smile and wave. Nada. We have noticed another thing... most people leave their curtains completely closed all day and night. Even when the weather is gorgeous, they're all buttoned-up tight. Again, maybe that's just my street?
I guess I'll never quite figure it out, and don't plan to stick around to try. I've tried. I'm not a quitter, but I quit on Utah. They can have it. They won. Anyway, I truly appreciate both of you -- your kind words and honestly... you've given me a bit of sunshine in an otherwise smoggy day! Thank you, and I wish you both the very best. MisfitBanana, I hope you find a friendlier place too! I should have never left Texas....
Not just your street. Same in my neighborhood. Pretty much the same everywhere I've bothered to notice. From my LR most neighbors front windows are mostly blocked by trees, but those that are visible ALWAYS the blinds drawn. Actually they all do, some just can't be seen well. In fact, the house directly across the street has been vacant for 3 years, and the owner still keeps the blinds drawn (owner's parents died and he keeps it up beautifully but is too blocked to clear out and sell). The only exceptions I've seen are my neighbors on either side, and they're all non-LDS out of state transplants too. Anyway, take a look through the houses in real estate sites. An amazing number of those houses are photographed with blinds down as well. Kinda makes you wonder what they're doing in there.
After getting over his astonishment at all this, a buddy suggested writing a proposal for a reality TV show. Using a split screen it would depict the most outrageous and obscene behaviours possible going on in plain sight in my living room, while being completely ignored by passers-by. Those passers-by would be later interviewed (maybe a psychologist) about why they didn't see what they just walked right past. The idea is start small with arguments and working up to fights, staged murder, orgies, etc. Good for 1 season I bet.
Despite this, Utah works great for me. We came from an area with huge lots, total privacy and stratospheric taxes. We still enjoy our privacy despite the postage stamp lots of suburbia. Except for 1 family of jerks, my other neighbors are all terrific. And, because of personal interests it has been very easy to cultivate a great circle of friends -- who are ALL transplants. We knew it would be that way going in, retired with no kids to worry about. That said, I'd never move here in a million years if I had kids.
So, sorry it doesn't work for you. As I've posted elsewhere, culturally it's like moving to a foreign country. But it's a disorienting foreign country because the people still speak english, use the same $$, have the same stores and TV etc. So it's natural to expect cultural commonalities. When you're hammered by the differences it's very disorienting. I lived in Switzerland for years and your reaction is exactly the same as many American expats, especially those living farther out from the city in an attempt to replicate their American suburban lifestyle (not saying you're doing that, just describing similarities of the situation). A very similar dynamic.
I've written about this before. Short version - they don't have to try, and their activities really DO revolve around their ward/church. Growing up, as Mormons, we were encouraged to be friendly and welcoming, especially if someone showed an interest in the church. But in Utah, where the Mormon culture is so strong you're going to know about the church whether you want to or not, there's no need for Mormons to be friendly to the non-Mormons - at least not to encourage anyone to attend church.
And activities really DO revolve around the ward/church. If you were Mormon, you'd go to church, you'd participate in all those activities, and before you knew it, you'd have new friends - in relief society, in priesthood, in nursery/primary's (depending on the age of your son). So someone new moves in, and people in the neighborhood expect to see them at their local ward. If they don't, then that means they're either not Mormon, or they attend another ward. And why make friends with new people who you don't know, and who you'll never hang out with because between church activities, family activities, and work, you don't have any more time?
That last question wasn't sarcastic. Seriously, if my life revolved around one particular thing, why would I go out of my way to make friends with strangers who had nothing to do with that particular thing? That said, I'd still wave at a neighbor, or smile at someone who smiled at me (unless it was someone who seemed creepy).
I felt like my local ward was really unfriendly to me (in SLC) - I stopped going to church when I was 18, but I let my daughter attend with my parents in CA, and when we moved to UT, my daughter was old enough to attend on her own. When I attended the ward Christmas party, where my daughter was playing Mary in the Nativity, NO ONE came up to me, no one introduced themselves, and when I tried to start conversations with other people, they'd give me monosyllabic answers and then literally turn their backs on me to start a conversation with someone else. Incredibly rude. It was a shock to me, given the expectation of friendliness that had been cultivated from growing up in the Mormon church in California.
This is all fascinating and illustrative. It all strongly reinforces my thesis that in Utah there really is a pervasive culture of exclusion, insularity and if-I don't-already-know-you-then-I-don't-need-to-know-you. The unfortunate corollary is that if-I-don't-NEED-to-know-you-then-I-don't-NEED-to-be-polite-to-you.
When you take a step back I think it's actually very damning of local Mormon culture. Here's the elephant in the room that everybody dances around: the culture says that it's ok to be unfriendly and even uncivil to people outside your group. There's one standard of interpersonal interaction for your group and another for everybody else. Elsewhere in the US this is generally not the norm. The closest analog I can think of is places with locally embedded where whites don't feel any need to be civil to blacks or Mexicans. The social dynamic is actually the same IMO and is called racism when it's about ethnicity: the in-group feels that it's OK to treat the out-group differently.
Your experience in CA demonstrates the point. That's culture where people are expected to be at least superficially civil to everybody. I think the thing about "making friends with new people" is just another symptom and actually misses this larger point. All the observations people make about the superficial unfriendliness (eyes forward, supermarket lines, etc) stem from the exact same thing: insularity and social awkwardness is embedded in the local cultural DNA. Both are modeled by adults for their kids. the eyes-forward stuff is just the first symptom that newcomers notice, and notice it they do. The rest is just the next stage.
Last edited by kletter1mann; 07-08-2017 at 08:16 AM..
Reason: typos
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Update After Six Months in Ogden...
Thanks... Good to know I'm not alone.
Thank you, and I wish you both the very best. 
