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It will never cease to amaze me how people feel comfortable making such sweeping generalizations and engaging in harmful negative stereotyping of an entire group of people. Can you imagine a thread titled "For all those who are considering moving to a predominantly black area of Georgia with kids" or "For all those who are considering moving to a predominantly Cuban area of South Florida with kids" and then proceed to post an article detailing some crime committed by an African-American against a child or an article about a racist exile that harassed a school girl?
I don't think there is anything wrong with sharing your views about certain neighborhoods or discussing demographics, but I do think that there is something very problematic about trying to tarnish Latter-day Saints with the clumsy actions of a school teacher—a teacher whom it has not even been confirmed whether they are a Latter-day Saint. Even if that were confirmed, it still would not lend any validity to any perceived hostility from Latter-day Saints. Their problem is their problem, and there is no evidence to suggest that there is a major problem with Catholic children being permitted to practice their religion. It's also rich reading the sob stories of white gentiles and their children on the trials and tribulations of being a minority somewhere. Join the club.
Streotypes are not without problems but your problem is that you see anyone sharing a negative experience or comment relating to Utah or LDS as harmful stereotyping. And, your one-sided and aggressive rush to defend it is very counterproductive. And yes - there is something special about Utah insofar as the non-LDS are very much a minority and some of them feel that in their daily lives. And, if they share that experience here - you are one of the first ones to jump on them with your aggressive defense. One can have negative experiences anywhere, and most people can parse their relevance for themselves - without your help.
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You clearly have no idea what my views are on real Utah issues, nor do you know about my faith background or practice. For the record, I have said on a number of occasions that I view Utah public education as sorely lacking in resources. I have never made any attempts to defend Utah air quality. I do think that the state and local industry is doing more than some of you will allow, and I think that many of you need to think more realistically about the causes of poor air quality and what can actually be accomplished. I do think that complaining about the demographics of Utah officeholders (or anywhere else) is asinine. These people are democratically elected in the same manner as in every other state. If you do not like the demographics, you go out and campaign for people that fit your desired demographic. I don't find it important for my representatives to represent my particular demographic. It is much more important to me that they reflect my views and conduct themselves in an ethical and effective manner.
You can hold whatever ideas you have, but thinking that that’s the only way to think is what is arrogant and ascinine. As someone belonging to the dominant religion and political spectrum of this state, it is easy to be so theoretical about it. Those in the minority may have a different view on the political leadership of this state.
Last edited by kavm; 03-10-2019 at 10:53 AM..
Reason: Additional response
I applaud the OP for raisng the subject. This incident unequivocally suggests the insularity existing in Davis county. It's amazing that an adult would have never heard of or ever seen the Ash Weds mark, yet here we are. And this insularity is a common feature of Utah culture. Suggesting otherwise is simply unserious. To that I'll add this: every single person I know that was raised in Utah and not LDS - every one - suffered some degree of social exclusion in school. It ranges from just being shunned/ignored to being beaten up. The apologists and deniers need to get their heads out of the sand and get out more.
I applaud the OP for raisng the subject. This incident unequivocally suggests the insularity existing in Davis county. It's amazing that an adult would have never heard of or ever seen the Ash Weds mark, yet here we are. And this insularity is a common feature of Utah culture. Suggesting otherwise is simply unserious. To that I'll add this: every single person I know that was raised in Utah and not LDS - every one - suffered some degree of social exclusion in school. It ranges from just being shunned/ignored to being beaten up. The apologists and deniers need to get their heads out of the sand and get out more.
I agree that there is much insularity in the culture here. What I am less clear about is whether Utah is really all that unique. I wonder what the OP's experience would have been in a very Protestant area or in a very Jewish area in New York.
I'm 59 and I have an embarrassing confession to make. I didn't know about Ash Wednesday and marking the forehead with ashes until I saw that commentator Chris Cuomo on CNN had done this on Wednesday and something of an explanation was given. Color me ignorant, I suppose.
That being said, I have seen some disturbing things here in Utah over the years. I remember a situation where a mother told me that she didn't want to have to tell her nine year old son "what an atheist was". I could cite plenty of other examples too. I do think the relative isolation of Utah, the demographic make up of the population (overwhelming white and Mormon), and the conservative attitude of much of the population lends itself to not wanting or taking the time to educating themselves about how other people live. This includes not finding out about festivities, traditions, and their belief system. Its certainly not true of everyone here. However, it is true of a large segment of the population.
I grew up in an area with mostly Jews and Catholics, some Protestants. Students and teachers wore ashes every year to school. I think that Catholics who go to mass on Ash Wednesday wear the ashes all day, uniformly.
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Originally Posted by old fed
so what if the child wasn't eloquent? good lord.
no, ashes are not disruptive. people all across this country have ashes on their foreheads on ash wednesday, in work places and schools. i haven't read of any disruptions to the day to day.
I am from suburban Chicago, and I cannot recall a single time that someone (faculty or student) wore ashes on their forehead at school. I think it would have raised questions. I don't think that someone would have been asked to wipe it off as had been done in this case, but I think you are very naive if you think that ashes would not attract any attention in a primary school setting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kavm
Streotypes are not without problems but your problem is that you see anyone sharing a negative experience or comment relating to Utah or LDS as harmful stereotyping. And, your one-sided and aggressive rush to defend it is very counterproductive. And yes - there is something special about Utah insofar as the non-LDS are very much a minority and some of them feel that in their daily lives. And, if they share that experience here - you are one of the first ones to jump on them with your aggressive defense. One can have negative experiences anywhere, and most people can parse their relevance for themselves - without your help.
You can hold whatever ideas you have, but thinking that that’s the only way to think is what is arrogant and ascinine. As someone belonging to the dominant religion and political spectrum of this state, it is easy to be so theoretical about it. Those in the minority may have a different view on the political leadership of this state.
Again, I just think it is so comical for white people that aren't LDS to moan about being in the minority—a non-visible one I might add. Someone didn't understand ashes on my child's forehead in Bountiful. Grandma! Better call Fox News! We have quite a story here! Few of you have any idea what it is like to be a real minority.
I am not aware of a single LDS officeholder in my home state, and my preferred party is a super minority as of this election. I have never lived full-time in Utah. My perspective is not informed by having spent an entire—or even most of a—life in Utah. So, do me a favor, don't talk to me like someone who has never left Alpine.
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Originally Posted by kletter1mann
I applaud the OP for raisng the subject. This incident unequivocally suggests the insularity existing in Davis county. It's amazing that an adult would have never heard of or ever seen the Ash Weds mark, yet here we are. And this insularity is a common feature of Utah culture. Suggesting otherwise is simply unserious. To that I'll add this: every single person I know that was raised in Utah and not LDS - every one - suffered some degree of social exclusion in school. It ranges from just being shunned/ignored to being beaten up. The apologists and deniers need to get their heads out of the sand and get out more.
It's quite absurd of you to insinuate that there is an epidemic of school children beating up other school children over religion. You think LDS children aren't excluded or isolated because of their values? My best friend (under 30) went to Brighton, grew up in Cottonwood Heights, and describes the Church as 'a badge of shame' in his high school class. His high school experience strikes me as only slightly milder than what I encountered. This stuff goes both ways, and given how old C-D skews, it wouldn't surprise me if your frame of reference is the 1970s, 60s, 50s, etc. 2019 is a very different era.
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Originally Posted by markg91359
I agree that there is much insularity in the culture here. What I am less clear about is whether Utah is really all that unique. I wonder what the OP's experience would have been in a very Protestant area or in a very Jewish area in New York.
I'm 59 and I have an embarrassing confession to make. I didn't know about Ash Wednesday and marking the forehead with ashes until I saw that commentator Chris Cuomo on CNN had done this on Wednesday and something of an explanation was given. Color me ignorant, I suppose.
That being said, I have seen some disturbing things here in Utah over the years. I remember a situation where a mother told me that she didn't want to have to tell her nine-year-old son "what an atheist was". I could cite plenty of other examples too. I do think the relative isolation of Utah, the demographic make up of the population (overwhelming white and Mormon), and the conservative attitude of much of the population lends itself to not wanting or taking the time to educating themselves about how other people live. This includes not finding out about festivities, traditions, and their belief system. Its certainly not true of everyone here. However, it is true of a large segment of the population.
Its how these things happen.
One of my great-grandparents was a Knight of Columbus, and as stated previously, I grew up primarily in suburban Chicago. I had never heard of Ash Wednesday until I was an adult.
This sort of misunderstanding happens everywhere. It's a non-story, and it is blatantly obvious that grandma wanted to make a political/social statement and be on television.
Complainers and old jackanapes have taken this as an opportunity to denigrate the LDS community which has not been mentioned in a single article/video on this incident that I can find.
It's quite absurd of you to insinuate that there is an epidemic of school children beating up other school children over religion. You think LDS children aren't excluded or isolated because of their values? My best friend (under 30) went to Brighton, grew up in Cottonwood Heights, and describes the Church as 'a badge of shame' in his high school class. His high school experience strikes me as only slightly milder than what I encountered. This stuff goes both ways, and given how old C-D skews, it wouldn't surprise me if your frame of reference is the 1970s, 60s, 50s, etc. 2019 is a very different era.
I in no way insinuated an epidemic of anything. Please respect what I actually wrote. Your penchant for exaggeration and reductio ad absurdam is uninformative and diminishes whatever shred of legitimacy your posts may contain and contributes nothing to the conversation.
I in no way insinuated an epidemic of anything. Please respect what I actually wrote. Your penchant for exaggeration and reductio ad absurdam is uninformative and diminishes whatever shred of legitimacy your posts may contain and contributes nothing to the conversation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kletter1mann
...every single person I know that was raised in Utah and not LDS - every one - suffered some degree of social exclusion in school. It ranges from just being shunned/ignored to being beaten up. The apologists and deniers need to get their heads out of the sand and get out more.
That reads to me like you are insinuating that there is an epidemic, "every single person I know."
You need to look in the mirror, and you need to think more carefully about how you and others make unprovable claims based on hearsay—assuming the hearsay even happened, because some of you are so dedicated to your narrative, you will invent facts, like the OP, who has connected this incident to the Latter-day Saint community that has not been mentioned in the articles or videos at all.
That reads to me like you are insinuating that there is an epidemic, "every single person I know."
You need to look in the mirror, and you need to think more carefully about how you and others make unprovable claims based on hearsay—assuming the hearsay even happened, because some of you are so dedicated to your narrative, you will invent facts, like the OP, who has connected this incident to the Latter-day Saint community that has not been mentioned in the articles or videos at all.
Dude, you're hopeless. Do you know what "epidemic" even means? I'm not inventing anything, I'm recounting my personal experience. n = [people I know]. Period. Make of it what you will. Pathetic, just pathetic. I hope the moderator closes the thread.
I work for the same district in the same neighborhood. While I'm usually the first to roll my eyes at the local mormon culture, there's a lot more to this story. At any rate, she did mishandle things but later apologized, and hopefully everyone can turn the page. While it's unfortunate that it's been blown up in the media, I realize how terrible the optics are, so I understand why.
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