03-08-2019, 05:00 PM
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This is a perfect, although extreme, example of the kind of monochrome culture encountered in much of Utah (outside of the SL valley).
https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/08/us/4t...rnd/index.html
A 4th grader wore an ash cross from mass on Ash Wednesday, and his teacher, even though he told her what it was, told him it was "inappropriate" and made him wash it off. It's not that she was being mean, or bullying him. She probably had grown up LDS in a predominantly LDS area, and simply never had encountered this religious custom before, and thought it was inappropriate for the boy to have a dirty smudge in the shape of a cross on his forehead, while in school.
When people post saying that they have a great job offer in Provo, or Davis County, or really, just about anywhere in Utah outside of SLC, and want to know what it would be like for them and their kids, they should know about this. It's not that their kids would necessarily be bullied. But it's very, very hard to be a religious minority in an area where one religion is so predominant, and all-pervasive of every aspect of life.
03-08-2019, 07:03 PM
Location: Salt Lake City
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As unfortunate as this incident was (and it definitely was a stupid, insensitive thing the teacher did), given the fact that it's the first time something like this has ever happened (to the best of my knowledge; please correct me if I'm wrong), I don't think it ought to raise any red flags among people considering a move to Utah. Thousands of Utah kids who are not LDS go to school with LDS kids, play with them, are on soccer teams with them, have sleep-overs with them, etc. and never experience anything like this all the time they're growing up.
And just for the record, while it is entirely possible and even likely that the teacher was LDS, I have not been able to find anything in the news stating her religion. Seriously, why does everyone want to believe the worst, why the need to jump to conclusions, and why the need to stereotype? This was one teacher out of the thousands who have taught in Utah schools over the years. If it had happened in another state, it probably wouldn't have even made the news, and there would have been no automatic assumptions about the teacher's religion.
03-09-2019, 06:40 AM
Location: Illinois
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
parentologist
This is a perfect, although extreme, example of the kind of monochrome culture encountered in much of Utah (outside of the SL valley).
https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/08/us/4t...rnd/index.html
A 4th grader wore an ash cross from mass on Ash Wednesday, and his teacher, even though he told her what it was, told him it was "inappropriate" and made him wash it off. It's not that she was being mean, or bullying him. She probably had grown up LDS in a predominantly LDS area, and simply never had encountered this religious custom before, and thought it was inappropriate for the boy to have a dirty smudge in the shape of a cross on his forehead, while in school.
When people post saying that they have a great job offer in Provo, or Davis County, or really, just about anywhere in Utah outside of SLC, and want to know what it would be like for them and their kids, they should know about this. It's not that their kids would necessarily be bullied. But it's very, very hard to be a religious minority in an area where one religion is so predominant, and all-pervasive of every aspect of life.
I doubt that the teacher even knew what it was, and I doubt the student informed her what it was. Nothing to see here. Move along.
03-09-2019, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hiruko
I doubt that the teacher even knew what it was, and I doubt the student informed her what it was. Nothing to see here. Move along.
he did inform her
03-09-2019, 08:05 AM
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Hiroku is a pretty good example of the dismissiveness which anyone who has any issue with treatment by LDS will sometimes be be met with in Utah.
In the local media, it was made clear that the kid did state what the cross was.
That being said, it was also stated that the teacher formally apologized to the student and the student accepted the apology, in part because he likes his teacher and said that she is "pretty nice." That's the ideal resolution.
03-09-2019, 07:58 PM
Location: Illinois
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I doubt very seriously that the child was as eloquent and direct with his teacher as he has been in media reports following—reports that have been carefully staged to include the ash on his forehead.
I'm not saying that this religious display should not be allowed, but I do sympathize with the teacher and I can imagine that it would be disruptive.
Growing up in an area where Catholics, Episcopalians, and Lutherans greatly outnumber Latter-day Saints, I can't think of a single time when I was in school when a child or instructor showed up with ashes on their forehead.
This is a non-story and has only grabbed headlines because of some people (you among them it seems, parentologist ) striving to make Utah look bad, including the parents who obviously contacted media.
03-09-2019, 08:51 PM
Location: SLC
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I think cederite captures the dismissiveness of some posters - particularly Hiruko - very well. Unfortunately, Hiruko always has serious doubts over anything that might reflect badly on the LDS conduct. And, anyone sharing anything that is even marginally negative about the Utah/LDS conduct is striving to make Utah look bad. Which often precedes why are you in Utah if you dislike it so much and why don’t you move on or something to that effect.
This is a board where current and former residents of Utah share their experiences, thoughts and perceptions with others, and not a marketing website for Utah or its dominant religion. People’s experiences are different, and they are as real as those of someone else. We see plenty of good - people (of all religions including some wonderful LDS people), nature and so on, and plenty of bad - one-party/one-religion-dominated politics, poor environmental stewardship, and so on.
Details of the story aside, parentologist’s point of monochrome culture outside of the SL valley is very valid based upon everything I have read about.
03-10-2019, 12:31 AM
Location: Illinois
3,208 posts, read
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Reputation: 4256
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kavm
I think cederite captures the dismissiveness of some posters - particularly Hiruko - very well. Unfortunately, Hiruko always has serious doubts over anything that might reflect badly on the LDS conduct. And, anyone sharing anything that is even marginally negative about the Utah/LDS conduct is striving to make Utah look bad. Which often precedes why are you in Utah if you dislike it so much and why don’t you move on or something to that effect.
This is a board where current and former residents of Utah share their experiences, thoughts and perceptions with others, and not a marketing website for Utah or its dominant religion. People’s experiences are different, and they are as real as those of someone else. We see plenty of good - people (of all religions including some wonderful LDS people), nature and so on, and plenty of bad - one-party/one-religion-dominated politics, poor environmental stewardship, and so on.
Details of the story aside, parentologist’s point of monochrome culture outside of the SL valley is very valid based upon everything I have read about.
It will never cease to amaze me how people feel comfortable making such sweeping generalizations and engaging in harmful negative stereotyping of an entire group of people. Can you imagine a thread titled "For all those who are considering moving to a predominantly black area of Georgia with kids" or "For all those who are considering moving to a predominantly Cuban area of South Florida with kids" and then proceed to post an article detailing some crime committed by an African-American against a child or an article about a racist exile that harassed a school girl?
I don't think there is anything wrong with sharing your views about certain neighborhoods or discussing demographics, but I do think that there is something very problematic about trying to tarnish Latter-day Saints with the clumsy actions of a school teacher—a teacher whom it has not even been confirmed whether they are a Latter-day Saint. Even if that were confirmed, it still would not lend any validity to any perceived hostility from Latter-day Saints. Their problem is their problem, and there is no evidence to suggest that there is a major problem with Catholic children being permitted to practice their religion. It's also rich reading the sob stories of white gentiles and their children on the trials and tribulations of being a minority somewhere. Join the club.
You clearly have no idea what my views are on real Utah issues, nor do you know about my faith background or practice. For the record, I have said on a number of occasions that I view Utah public education as sorely lacking in resources. I have never made any attempts to defend Utah air quality. I do think that the state and local industry is doing more than some of you will allow, and I think that many of you need to think more realistically about the causes of poor air quality and what can actually be accomplished. I do think that complaining about the demographics of Utah officeholders (or anywhere else) is asinine. These people are democratically elected in the same manner as in every other state. If you do not like the demographics, you go out and campaign for people that fit your desired demographic. I don't find it important for my representatives to represent my particular demographic. It is much more important to me that they reflect my views and conduct themselves in an ethical and effective manner.
03-10-2019, 07:13 AM
5,989 posts, read
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Reputation: 18486
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hiruko
I doubt very seriously that the child was as eloquent and direct with his teacher as he has been in media reports following—reports that have been carefully staged to include the ash on his forehead.
I'm not saying that this religious display should not be allowed, but I do sympathize with the teacher and I can imagine that it would be disruptive.
Growing up in an area where Catholics, Episcopalians, and Lutherans greatly outnumber Latter-day Saints, I can't think of a single time when I was in school when a child or instructor showed up with ashes on their forehead.
This is a non-story and has only grabbed headlines because of some people (you among them it seems, parentologist ) striving to make Utah look bad, including the parents who obviously contacted media.
I grew up in an area with mostly Jews and Catholics, some Protestants. Students and teachers wore ashes every year to school. I think that Catholics who go to mass on Ash Wednesday wear the ashes all day, uniformly.
03-10-2019, 09:21 AM
2,891 posts, read
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Reputation: 6897
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hiruko
I doubt very seriously that the child was as eloquent and direct with his teacher
I'm not saying that this religious display should not be allowed, but I do sympathize with the teacher and I can imagine that it would be disruptive.
so what if the child wasn't eloquent? good lord.
no, ashes are not disruptive. people all across this country have ashes on their foreheads on ash wednesday, in work places and schools. i haven't read of any disruptions to the day to day.
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Most Common Occupations - Natural resources, construction, and maintenance occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Farming, fishing, and forestry occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Construction and extraction occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Installation, maintenance, and repair occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Production, transportation, and material moving occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Production occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Transportation occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Material moving occupations (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutionalized population (%)
People in Group quarters - Correctional institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Federal prisons and detention centers (%)
People in Group quarters - Halfway houses (%)
People in Group quarters - Local jails and other confinement facilities (including police lockups) (%)
People in Group quarters - Military disciplinary barracks (%)
People in Group quarters - State prisons (%)
People in Group quarters - Other types of correctional institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Nursing homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals/wards, hospices, and schools for the handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals/wards and hospices for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospices or homes for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Military hospitals or wards for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Other hospitals or wards for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals or wards for drug/alcohol abuse (%)
People in Group quarters - Mental (Psychiatric) hospitals or wards (%)
People in Group quarters - Schools, hospitals, or wards for the mentally retarded (%)
People in Group quarters - Schools, hospitals, or wards for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutions for the deaf (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutions for the blind (%)
People in Group quarters - Orthopedic wards and institutions for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Wards in general hospitals for patients who have no usual home elsewhere (%)
People in Group quarters - Wards in military hospitals for patients who have no usual home elsewhere (%)
People in Group quarters - Juvenile institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Long-term care (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for abused, dependent, and neglected children (%)
People in Group quarters - Residential treatment centers for emotionally disturbed children (%)
People in Group quarters - Training schools for juvenile delinquents (%)
People in Group quarters - Short-term care, detention or diagnostic centers for delinquent children (%)
People in Group quarters - Type of juvenile institution unknown (%)
People in Group quarters - Noninstitutionalized population (%)
People in Group quarters - College dormitories (includes college quarters off campus) (%)
People in Group quarters - Military quarters (%)
People in Group quarters - On base (%)
People in Group quarters - Barracks, unaccompanied personnel housing (UPH), (Enlisted/Officer), ;and similar group living quarters for military personnel (%)
People in Group quarters - Transient quarters for temporary residents (%)
People in Group quarters - Military ships (%)
People in Group quarters - Group homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes or halfway houses for drug/alcohol abuse (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the mentally ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the mentally retarded (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Other group homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Religious group quarters (%)
People in Group quarters - Dormitories (%)
People in Group quarters - Agriculture workers' dormitories on farms (%)
People in Group quarters - Job Corps and vocational training facilities (%)
People in Group quarters - Other workers' dormitories (%)
People in Group quarters - Crews of maritime vessels (%)
People in Group quarters - Other nonhousehold living situations (%)
People in Group quarters - Other noninstitutional group quarters (%)
Residents speaking English at home (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Foreign born (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Foreign born (%)
Residents speaking other language at home (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Foreign born (%)
Class of Workers - Employee of private company (%)
Class of Workers - Self-employed in own incorporated business (%)
Class of Workers - Private not-for-profit wage and salary workers (%)
Class of Workers - Local government workers (%)
Class of Workers - State government workers (%)
Class of Workers - Federal government workers (%)
Class of Workers - Self-employed workers in own not incorporated business and Unpaid family workers (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Utility gas (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Bottled, tank, or LP gas (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Electricity (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Fuel oil, kerosene, etc. (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Coal or coke (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Wood (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Solar energy (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Other fuel (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - No fuel used (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Utility gas (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Bottled, tank, or LP gas (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Electricity (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Fuel oil, kerosene, etc. (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Coal or coke (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Wood (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Solar energy (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Other fuel (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - No fuel used (%)
Armed forces status - In Armed Forces (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian - Veteran (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian - Nonveteran (%)
Fatal accidents locations in years 2005-2021
Fatal accidents locations in 2005
Fatal accidents locations in 2006
Fatal accidents locations in 2007
Fatal accidents locations in 2008
Fatal accidents locations in 2009
Fatal accidents locations in 2010
Fatal accidents locations in 2011
Fatal accidents locations in 2012
Fatal accidents locations in 2013
Fatal accidents locations in 2014
Fatal accidents locations in 2015
Fatal accidents locations in 2016
Fatal accidents locations in 2017
Fatal accidents locations in 2018
Fatal accidents locations in 2019
Fatal accidents locations in 2020
Fatal accidents locations in 2021
Alcohol use - People drinking some alcohol every month (%)
Alcohol use - People not drinking at all (%)
Alcohol use - Average days/month drinking alcohol
Alcohol use - Average drinks/week
Alcohol use - Average days/year people drink much
Audiometry - Average condition of hearing (%)
Audiometry - People that can hear a whisper from across a quiet room (%)
Audiometry - People that can hear normal voice from across a quiet room (%)
Audiometry - Ears ringing, roaring, buzzing (%)
Audiometry - Had a job exposure to loud noise (%)
Audiometry - Had off-work exposure to loud noise (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Has high blood pressure (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Checking blood pressure at home (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Frequently checking blood cholesterol (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Has high cholesterol level (%)
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on food at supermarket/grocery store
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on food at other stores
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on eating out
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on carryout/delivered foods
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on food at supermarket/grocery store (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on food at other stores (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on eating out (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on carryout/delivered foods (%)
Current Health Status - General health condition (%)
Current Health Status - Blood donors (%)
Current Health Status - Has blood ever tested for HIV virus (%)
Current Health Status - Left-handed people (%)
Dermatology - People using sunscreen (%)
Diabetes - Diabetics (%)
Diabetes - Had a blood test for high blood sugar (%)
Diabetes - People taking insulin (%)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Diet health (%)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Milk product consumption (# of products/month)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Meals not home prepared (#/week)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Meals from fast food or pizza place (#/week)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Ready-to-eat foods (#/month)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Frozen meals/pizza (#/month)
Drug Use - People that ever used marijuana or hashish (%)
Drug Use - Ever used hard drugs (%)
Drug Use - Ever used any form of cocaine (%)
Drug Use - Ever used heroin (%)
Drug Use - Ever used methamphetamine (%)
Health Insurance - People covered by health insurance (%)
Kidney Conditions-Urology - Avg. # of times urinating at night
Medical Conditions - People with asthma (%)
Medical Conditions - People with anemia (%)
Medical Conditions - People with psoriasis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with overweight (%)
Medical Conditions - Elderly people having difficulties in thinking or remembering (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever received blood transfusion (%)
Medical Conditions - People having trouble seeing even with glass/contacts (%)
Medical Conditions - People with arthritis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with gout (%)
Medical Conditions - People with congestive heart failure (%)
Medical Conditions - People with coronary heart disease (%)
Medical Conditions - People with angina pectoris (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had heart attack (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had stroke (%)
Medical Conditions - People with emphysema (%)
Medical Conditions - People with thyroid problem (%)
Medical Conditions - People with chronic bronchitis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with any liver condition (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had cancer or malignancy (%)
Mental Health - People who have little interest in doing things (%)
Mental Health - People feeling down, depressed, or hopeless (%)
Mental Health - People who have trouble sleeping or sleeping too much (%)
Mental Health - People feeling tired or having little energy (%)
Mental Health - People with poor appetite or overeating (%)
Mental Health - People feeling bad about themself (%)
Mental Health - People who have trouble concentrating on things (%)
Mental Health - People moving or speaking slowly or too fast (%)
Mental Health - People having thoughts they would be better off dead (%)
Oral Health - Average years since last visit a dentist
Oral Health - People embarrassed because of mouth (%)
Oral Health - People with gum disease (%)
Oral Health - General health of teeth and gums (%)
Oral Health - Average days a week using dental floss/device
Oral Health - Average days a week using mouthwash for dental problem
Oral Health - Average number of teeth
Pesticide Use - Households using pesticides to control insects (%)
Pesticide Use - Households using pesticides to kill weeds (%)
Physical Activity - People doing vigorous-intensity work activities (%)
Physical Activity - People doing moderate-intensity work activities (%)
Physical Activity - People walking or bicycling (%)
Physical Activity - People doing vigorous-intensity recreational activities (%)
Physical Activity - People doing moderate-intensity recreational activities (%)
Physical Activity - Average hours a day doing sedentary activities
Physical Activity - Average hours a day watching TV or videos
Physical Activity - Average hours a day using computer
Physical Functioning - People having limitations keeping them from working (%)
Physical Functioning - People limited in amount of work they can do (%)
Physical Functioning - People that need special equipment to walk (%)
Physical Functioning - People experiencing confusion/memory problems (%)
Physical Functioning - People requiring special healthcare equipment (%)
Prescription Medications - Average number of prescription medicines taking
Preventive Aspirin Use - Adults 40+ taking low-dose aspirin (%)
Reproductive Health - Vaginal deliveries (%)
Reproductive Health - Cesarean deliveries (%)
Reproductive Health - Deliveries resulted in a live birth (%)
Reproductive Health - Pregnancies resulted in a delivery (%)
Reproductive Health - Women breastfeeding newborns (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that had a hysterectomy (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that had both ovaries removed (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever taken birth control pills (%)
Reproductive Health - Women taking birth control pills (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever used Depo-Provera or injectables (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever used female hormones (%)
Sexual Behavior - People 18+ that ever had sex (vaginal, anal, or oral) (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had vaginal sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever performed oral sex on a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had anal sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had any sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had vaginal sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever performed oral sex on a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had anal sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had any kind of sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first had sex
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female vaginal sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first performed oral sex on a woman (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of woman performed oral sex on in lifetime (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male anal sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first performed oral sex on a man (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male oral sex partners in lifetime (18+)
Sexual Behavior - People using protection when performing oral sex (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of times people have vaginal or anal sex a year
Sexual Behavior - People having sex without condom (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male vaginal sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Circumcised males 18+ (%)
Sleep Disorders - Average hours sleeping at night
Sleep Disorders - People that has trouble sleeping (%)
Smoking-Cigarette Use - People smoking cigarettes (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ having problems with smell (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ having problems with taste (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had wisdom teeth removed (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had tonsils teeth removed (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had a loss of consciousness because of a head injury (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had a broken nose or other serious injury to face or skull (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had two or more sinus infections (%)
Weight - Average height (inches)
Weight - Average weight (pounds)
Weight - Average BMI
Weight - People that are obese (%)
Weight - People that ever were obese (%)
Weight - People trying to lose weight (%)