Questions about being Non-LDS in Utah (Salt Lake City, Provo: lawyers, homeschool, subdivisions)

[SergeantL]

Originally Posted by jest721

you, like many others, are categorically dismissive of anyone who you view as threatening your beliefs. You validate this by shamelessly painting us all as someone with an axe to grind.

Let us review for a moment. I have not dismissed your experience or opinion; however, I dismiss the idea that your experience is normative in Utah. Next, I did not paint all posters as people who have an axe to grind. Here is what I wrote:

"Next, keep in mind that some (emphasis added) of the posts wherein people complain about being excluded socially by LDS members are from people who have “an axe to grind” with the LDS faith and the information is skewed to a certain degree or an outright misrepresentation."

You will note that some is a far cry from all.

[jest721]

Originally Posted by SergeantL

Let us review for a moment. I have not dismissed your experience or opinion; however, I dismiss the idea that your experience is normative in Utah. Next, I did not paint all posters as persons who have an axe to grind....

I admit to my mistake then; which posters had an axe to grind?
Further, you seem to want to discredit my experiences. You claim that the experience is not normative, that may well be true. I don't think racism is the norm either, but incidents involving racism will always make the top of news broadcast. There are incidents everywhere; the friendliness is highly overlooked and the tensions are scrutinized. It may not happen to everyone, but that does not mean it does not happen extensivley.
If you want to review the posts, very well, do so. You will find that my question has been asked repeatedly, and yet to be answered. If it does not apply to you, then I congratulate you on your Christian value of friendship among neighbors. However, it puts you in a position of being unable to answer my question.
Perhaps you could tell me, what is the mormon view of neighbors? Most groups of people tend to be wary of outsiders. Either in practice or doctrine. I have stated that I find mormons to be generally amiable, with few exceptions. It is not that I don't believe you, but outside of your interpretation of the good samaritan, is there any doctrinal support of being a good neighbor?

[SergeantL]

Originally Posted by jest721

I admit to my mistake then; which posters had an axe to grind?

Jest, I don’t know which posters have an axe to grind on this particular topic, but logic and empirical experience demonstrates to me there are some. I can point out a number of posts, where the authors clearly have an issue with Mormons. In fact, one chap with the pseudonym “Tellitlikeitis” is clearly grinding an axe as I write you.

Further, you seem to want to discredit my experiences. You claim that the experience is not normative, that may well be true. I don't think racism is the norm either, but incidents involving racism will always make the top of news broadcast. There are incidents everywhere; the friendliness is highly overlooked and the tensions are scrutinized. It may not happen to everyone, but that does not mean it does not happen extensively.

No, I don’t want to discredit what has or is happening to you. I assume it is happening, but I am unwilling to paint this as a common practice.

Perhaps you could tell me, what is the Mormon view of neighbors? Most groups of people tend to be wary of outsiders, either in practice or doctrine. I have stated that I find Mormons to be generally amiable, with few exceptions. It is not that I don't believe you, but outside of your interpretation of the good Samaritan, is there any doctrinal support of being a good neighbor?

Actually, that’s a tough question, Jest. I do what I can for my neighbors, but I don’t necessarily want to socialize with them. We just don’t have any common ground between us even though we live next to each other. Truth be known, there are members in my own local church ward, who are not on my “A” list. They really get on my nerves. In fact, there are days when my wife isn’t on my “A” list. I can also tell you there were times when my children were growing up that I gained valuable insight into why animals will occasionally eat their young.

What can I say to help you understand? My neighbor’s wife across the street suffered a stroke last week and she was carted off to the hospital. He is bedridden and on oxygen. I took care of him for a day until his children arrived from out of state. My wife picked them up at the airport. My neighbor and I are friendly to each other, but we don’t socialize. He is bedridden because of heavy alcohol and cigarette use. His idea of a good social event was going to the bar. Now, I don’t like what he did, I don’t socialize with him, but in their time of need, my wife and I rendered service to our neighbors.

As far as doctrine concerning neighborly behavior, I know of nothing other than what is commonly accepted by other religions. Mormons have no special doctrine.

[bdsutah]

We recently moved to Utah and we are NOT Mormon. Is there a way that Mormon's can find out that we are not Mormon? I'm curious because we have not felt welcomed since arriving 3 months ago. We have met some people that are nice and talk with us but overall have felt shunned by this community. Those that do talk with us I know are not Mormon. I'm shocked at such bad behavior, we are a christian family and believe that we reside in a great country that allows freedom of religion. I am firm believer that everyone has the right to believe any religion they choose but to shun others because they don't have the same beliefs is not okay with me, especially when it involves my children. They are the innocent victims. The move was hard enough on them, they don't need the challenges they are faced with here. I grew up as a military kid and shared with my kids the excitement that the move will be great, they'll meet a group of new friends and get to experience another area of the country which many families don't do and they remain in the same area forever. What a great experience for my children, so I thought! I have never lived in an area so unwelcoming. What a disappointment! Both my kids are in sports and this is probably where we see the most disconnect. Any advice?

[SergeantL]

Originally Posted by bdsutah

We recently moved to Utah and we are NOT Mormon. Is there a way that Mormon's can find out that we are not Mormon? I'm curious because we have not felt welcomed since arriving 3 months ago. We have met some people that are nice and talk with us but overall we have felt shunned by this community. Those that do talk with us I know are not Mormon. I'm shocked at such bad behavior, we are a Christian family...What a disappointment!...Any advice?

Well, if you don’t go to the local LDS ward, you are either a newly arrived inactive member or not LDS. It’s very easy to learn this in Utah. In other states, such is not usually possible.

I can’t give you any real advice. My personality is such that I don’t care whether anyone makes me feel welcome. I have no problem finding productive ways of filling any social voids in my life.

I would ask; what were your expectations? This is important to understand why you don't feel welcomed. What specific overt or discreet behavior have you observed that contributes to this feeling you have?

[bdsutah]

Right! I am not LDS. I have always been a strong person that didn't care what people think. However, when it involves my children and them being isolated because they are not LDS, I think that draws the line between "them" and "us".

We moved from an area where we didn't have any relatives but had many friends that we considered family. We are an outgoing family but feel a little isolated now. However, we still encourage our kids to play the sports they want to play even though the other kids aren't very friendly to them. We are our kids biggest supporters anyway! It is difficult to explain to a 7 year old boy why some kids think they are better than others when they've never faced that before. As a family we have found that doing activities on Sunday's gives us great time together as many places are not busy because a large portion of the population is LDS.

My expectations when moving here were that it would very similar to the moves when I was a kid and those that I've made as an adult - a great adventure. In the past, they've all gone smoothly, myself and my children made friends quickly and the schools were very welcoming. I have met some parents through their sporting events and school. I've chatted with them to introduce our families and they seem nice, however, after that they never make an effort to talk again. I believe that this is because they were able to discover that we were not LDS. I don't have unruly children or an aggressive need for friends but there has never been a welcoming feeling, unlike many other places I've lived.

At this time, I'm contributing all that to the fact that we are considered the "outsiders" as we are not LDS. I find that to be a disgrace to the LDS religion. I've known LDS members and others that have converted out of LDS and never had a problem socializing with them but I think that the concentration of LDS here is so great it has completely taken over and people have lost the ability to be nice to those that are different.

Nobody actually comes out and asks if we are LDS but I've noticed everyone asks where we live. After reading through many of the postings, I've discovered why... they can determine what LDS ward we should belong to if we were LDS. Very unfortunate!

In the meantime, we enjoy our family time together and eagerly look forward to our next move.

[mountainfaith]

Hey, I'm not LDS, but was just wondering if you could say what city you live in where that's going on. Are you in an older more established neighborhood maybe?

Are you outside of Layton area? It's just a helpful thing for those of us with little ones to know. Thanks.

To those in the local area, are Pleasant View or North Ogden diverse enough for young kids, or is still Layton primarily the best choice? Thanks. I'm really trying to narrow it down now. And that final narrowing down is not EZ.

[bdsutah]

We are in the Sandy/Draper area.

[bdsutah]

Have you experienced the same?

[SergeantL]

Originally Posted by bdsutah

Right! I am not LDS. I have always been a strong person that didn't care what people think. However, when it involves my children and them being isolated because they are not LDS, I think that draws the line between "them" and "us.”...we still encourage our kids to play the sports they want to play even though the other kids aren't very friendly to them.

I understand, but I am looking for specific behavior. Next, are you certain they are LDS?

We are our kid’s biggest supporters anyway! It is difficult to explain to a 7-year-old boy why some kids think they are better than others.

This is interesting. What have the other children said to your children?

I have met some parents through their sporting events and school. I've chatted with them to introduce our families and they seem nice, however, after that they never make an effort to talk again. I believe that this is because they were able to discover that we were not LDS.

I ask, again; how do you know all of the other parents are LDS?

At this time, I'm contributing all that to the fact that we are considered the "outsiders" as we are not LDS. I find that to be a disgrace to the LDS religion.

Well, I suppose if you are certain all of the other parents are LDS and thinking what you believe they are thinking, then this is fair; however, have you ever considered they might be reserved, shy, or absorbed in their kids playing? I find most people in Utah to be much more reserved than many other states.

Nobody actually comes out and asks if we are LDS but I've noticed everyone asks where we live. After reading through many of the postings, I've discovered why... they can determine what LDS ward we should belong to if we were LDS.!

Whoa, wait a minute! If your immediate neighbors are LDS and you don’t go to their ward, then they pretty well know you are not LDS, because your immediate neighbors will attend the same ward. Other people, who are not your immediate neighbors, who are LDS, have no way of knowing, because they don’t go to your ward. These people are asking simply because they are curious.