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Old 10-08-2009, 08:47 PM
 
7 posts, read 16,320 times
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Hi, just happened on this thread when setting up a thread w/questions about retiring back to UT where I lived for 25 yrs (adult) but left 20 yrs ago. Yes, I'm serious about returning because I love the red rock desert so much & miss it so much. One week a year camping/hiking w/my son's family is just not enough. But I related so much to the experience of the person who started this thread. I moved to SLC on a whim from Lake Ontario area in NY when I was 20, made friends both Mormon & non-, but mostly non-, & had very mixed experiences. Especially after I was married & had kids, living in E. Millcreek area, I encountered a LOT of coldness & suspicion: children not allowed to play w/my 2 because they weren't Mormon, we were never included in any social activities in neighborhood, mostly because most people's activities revolved around LDS church, which is understandable. I worked with women who were really friendly until they learned I was not LDS, then they stopped speaking to me entirely, not even hello--looked thru me like I was not there. After my divorce, living in WVC, girl across street wasn't allowed to play w/Julie despite the fact that 2 of the girl's Mormon brothers were in Utah State Prison at the time & the 2nd year we were there, the girl broke into our house & stole clothes & jewelry of Julie's; I went over to talk to the mother--sadly, feeling bad to make her aware her daughter would do such a thing. She denied that her girl would steal but when daughter came in, she readily admitted it. Her mother's response: "Well, don't do it again.") .
But I realized it was a matter of majority. My ex-husband is a jack-Mormon & has often said if he lived elsewhere, he would probably get reinvolved in the LDS church but he can't stand the attitude of Utah Mormons generally (obviously not specifically, since we both knew many wonderful Mormons). Since I left him 38 yrs ago, he has never dated a Mormon woman (neither of us have remarried), only "Gentiles." He finds Utah LDS too judgmental & too quick to try to push him back into church. Ironically, he drinks socially, I don't. But my WVC neighbors kept tabs, I learned, on my once or twice a yr disposal of a rum or bourbon bottle that I used in my baking! My daughter was considered a "stoney" simply because she wasn't a Mormon, she hated school & quit b4 graduating, later getting her GED. Has no desire to return there to live. But her brother returned after 10 yrs in the military, lives in Park City which naturally has far fewer problems re religion, being more diverse. When he was 8 & his Mormon schoolmates were all being baptized, he kept asking me questions about Mormonism. Finally I asked if he sometimes wished he was Mormon. He looked at me like i"d lost my mind & said, "NO! I wish they were all Baptists." So he has dealt with it well & married a non-Mormon girl.
Being actively involved in a church always helped, especially now that Utah is more diverse. But every happy non-Mormon I ever knew in SL County said they would NEVER live in Utah Co., or "happy valley" as it is known to non-LDS.
I have had friends who moved to SL Co from the southeast who said they had similar experiences with the majority Southern Baptists there, so it's that majority influence that causes the problem, I think. But it isn't YOU-or me or my children-it is the attitude of "there's more of us so we must be better." Hang in. And move to SLC if possible, even if it means a long commute!
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Old 10-08-2009, 09:13 PM
 
7 posts, read 16,320 times
Reputation: 16
Default more reflections on being a stranger in new community

I have read more of the posts in this thread now & really picked up on the number of "maybe it's something you're doing" theme. Made me think: I moved to SLC from NY state at 20, moved to Boston MA at 45 (knew ONE PERSON & had no job), moved to small town in northern CA because I bought a business there, moved to Napa Valley 2 yrs later, moved to Baltimore at 61, to Annapolis at 62. In EVERY place I lived other than SLC, people reached out & welcomed me in, invited me to social events, asked me to take part in community affairs, etc. I am the same person I was in UT so it isn't me. But in no other area I lived was there a majority anything, all of these places were diverse. I think it's the lack of diversity that's key. Someday that will change because there will someday be more non-native non-Mormons in UT than native Mormons. And it will benefit everyone. And I look forward to coming back in the near future!
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Old 10-09-2009, 02:50 PM
 
Location: Happy in Utah
1,224 posts, read 3,369,505 times
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Somehow, have not had a problem really, living in Utah county, then again I try not to take it personally if some one will not respond to my Hellos or waves, specially at my sons school, no one will say Hi back really(oh well) as long as my son is being treated well I dont care. I try to put my self in another persons shoes also, maybe they think that I might judge them for being Mormon(not the case I belive their are many roads to God) We are moving to Saratoga Springs in late Nov., met are next door neighboars who seem really nice, no one asked us if we were LDS or not, just like no one has asked me that since we moved here 3 yrs ago(well the guide at Temple square did, I dont count that one)
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Old 10-10-2009, 01:59 PM
 
Location: vagabond
2,631 posts, read 5,447,341 times
Reputation: 1314
here are a few of my theories:

first, facts, assumptions, and observations:

one: fact; american culture is not one homogenous mass; it is made up of thousands of separate subcultures, many of them different enough to feel like a foreign country.

two: observation; notice how the nonmormons notice the attitude difference here in utah, but it is harder for the mormons to notice the same thing. now notice how mormons notice the same thing very often when living out of state, but from individuals of other religions.

three: observation; in my marriage, the majority of our disagreements brew out of a simple misunderstanding; very often we even agree on the argument in question, but have approached it in a way that seem contrary to one another, and the bad feelings begin.

four: observation; i have noticed this exact pattern of misunderstanding-offense in other relationships as well, even with friends, coworkers, etc. i have also noticed it between other people that i was not involved in. this still seems to me to be one of the *biggest* reasons why people argue or become conflicted.

five: observation; in my experience, i have come to the conclusion that these misunderstanding-offense issues are even easier to trigger with people that you don't know. this is one thing that pisses off many drivers on the road, what allows you to become royally irked at the lady in the grocery store in front of you, etc. we know even less of these people and their motives, and it is even easier to incorrectly assume that we understand what they are doing/saying/thinking and to take offense at it.

six: assumption; the fact that those coming into utah come from different cultures makes it even harder for them to understand the utahns, and even harder for the utahns to understand them, as far as motives, backgrounds, and personalities go. this then exacerbates the misunderstanding-offense pattern.

seven: assumption; this minsunderstanding-offense pattern is actually a human issue, not an aaron issue that i alone have noticed, and that a large percentage of our (mis)communications are affected by it.

eight: fact; people tend to be oblivious to the wants and needs of those around them unless they are emotionally tied to those individuals.

nine: fact; people do tend to be suspicious of those that do not belong to their group; this works both ways in every case, and the nonmormons are as affected by this as are the mormons. it does not matter how much we have in common for this to occur. the only thing that matters is the little bit that divides us. look at religion broadly for an example; most religions believe in roughly 96% of the same thing; they have roughly 96% the same goals, the same motivations, etc. yet they go to war over the small, 4% differences (percentages are made up in this case, but i would bet that they are within 10-15% accuracy here).

ten: fact; people also tend to become complacent in social settings where they have a solid and identified role; where they belong.

and eleven: fact; people tend to focus on the bad things rather than the good things around them, especially with regards to other people.

my theories:

1-the majority of utahns/utah mormons are friendly, unbiased individuals.

2-the majority of utah transplants/nonmormons are friendly, unbiased individuals.

3-there is a small minority of both groups that are actually malicious, unfriendly, hateful, etc.

4-those small minorities spoil the rest of the apple barrel in many ways, among them stereotypes and reputation (nonmormon utah transplants are evil, satan-worshipping gentiles; utahns/mormons are selfish, stuck up, gentile-hating jerks).

5-even the large majorities of nice people are affected by this spoiled-apple effect from the not-nice minority.

6-the nice majority is also affected heavily by the miscommunication-offense factor. new neighbor is used to a different culture, different social settings, and thinks that he or she is being ostracized or maligned, when the mormons around the new neighbors are going out of their way to giving the new neighbors their space, not pushing religion on them, and trying to respect their different views. meanwhile, the mormons are taken aback and hurt by their new neighbors' standoffishness, refusals to interact in normal life, etc, while the neighbors are really just saying that they don't want to go to the ward bbq. these are just two examples and do not in any way represent the totality of social problems between utah mormons and nonmormon transplants.

there are other factors as well, i do not doubt. many of them have been discussed ad nauseum on this forum, and certainly other forums as well. but i am pretty confident that most social tension in utah between mormons and nons comes from a simple miscommunication.

most of us don't care what religion you do or don't belong to, and i am certain that most of you nonmormons don't care what religion we belong to.
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Old 10-10-2009, 06:59 PM
 
Location: South Jordan, Utah
8,182 posts, read 9,190,745 times
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Sty,

amen!

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Old 10-10-2009, 10:49 PM
 
14,380 posts, read 14,207,248 times
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here are a few of my theories:

first, facts, assumptions, and observations:

one: fact; american culture is not one homogenous mass; it is made up of thousands of separate subcultures, many of them different enough to feel like a foreign country.

two: observation; notice how the nonmormons notice the attitude difference here in utah, but it is harder for the mormons to notice the same thing. now notice how mormons notice the same thing very often when living out of state, but from individuals of other religions.

three: observation; in my marriage, the majority of our disagreements brew out of a simple misunderstanding; very often we even agree on the argument in question, but have approached it in a way that seem contrary to one another, and the bad feelings begin.

four: observation; i have noticed this exact pattern of misunderstanding-offense in other relationships as well, even with friends, coworkers, etc. i have also noticed it between other people that i was not involved in. this still seems to me to be one of the *biggest* reasons why people argue or become conflicted.

five: observation; in my experience, i have come to the conclusion that these misunderstanding-offense issues are even easier to trigger with people that you don't know. this is one thing that pisses off many drivers on the road, what allows you to become royally irked at the lady in the grocery store in front of you, etc. we know even less of these people and their motives, and it is even easier to incorrectly assume that we understand what they are doing/saying/thinking and to take offense at it.

six: assumption; the fact that those coming into utah come from different cultures makes it even harder for them to understand the utahns, and even harder for the utahns to understand them, as far as motives, backgrounds, and personalities go. this then exacerbates the misunderstanding-offense pattern.

seven: assumption; this minsunderstanding-offense pattern is actually a human issue, not an aaron issue that i alone have noticed, and that a large percentage of our (mis)communications are affected by it.

eight: fact; people tend to be oblivious to the wants and needs of those around them unless they are emotionally tied to those individuals.

nine: fact; people do tend to be suspicious of those that do not belong to their group; this works both ways in every case, and the nonmormons are as affected by this as are the mormons. it does not matter how much we have in common for this to occur. the only thing that matters is the little bit that divides us. look at religion broadly for an example; most religions believe in roughly 96% of the same thing; they have roughly 96% the same goals, the same motivations, etc. yet they go to war over the small, 4% differences (percentages are made up in this case, but i would bet that they are within 10-15% accuracy here).

ten: fact; people also tend to become complacent in social settings where they have a solid and identified role; where they belong.

and eleven: fact; people tend to focus on the bad things rather than the good things around them, especially with regards to other people.

my theories:

1-the majority of utahns/utah mormons are friendly, unbiased individuals.

2-the majority of utah transplants/nonmormons are friendly, unbiased individuals.

3-there is a small minority of both groups that are actually malicious, unfriendly, hateful, etc.

4-those small minorities spoil the rest of the apple barrel in many ways, among them stereotypes and reputation (nonmormon utah transplants are evil, satan-worshipping gentiles; utahns/mormons are selfish, stuck up, gentile-hating jerks).

5-even the large majorities of nice people are affected by this spoiled-apple effect from the not-nice minority.

6-the nice majority is also affected heavily by the miscommunication-offense factor. new neighbor is used to a different culture, different social settings, and thinks that he or she is being ostracized or maligned, when the mormons around the new neighbors are going out of their way to giving the new neighbors their space, not pushing religion on them, and trying to respect their different views. meanwhile, the mormons are taken aback and hurt by their new neighbors' standoffishness, refusals to interact in normal life, etc, while the neighbors are really just saying that they don't want to go to the ward bbq. these are just two examples and do not in any way represent the totality of social problems between utah mormons and nonmormon transplants.

there are other factors as well, i do not doubt. many of them have been discussed ad nauseum on this forum, and certainly other forums as well. but i am pretty confident that most social tension in utah between mormons and nons comes from a simple miscommunication.

most of us don't care what religion you do or don't belong to, and i am certain that most of you nonmormons don't care what religion we belong to.

.................................................. ..............................................

Interesting ideas and they undoubtedly contain much truth.

I think, though, that these kinds of problems are much too complex to simply blame on a small minority of LDS and non-LDs people who are "jerks".

I see problems here as more systemic. I think LDS people have lived here and lived our religion for so long we fail to realize that its less a religion for us than it is an entire lifestyle. Alot of perceived unfriendliness comes from the fact that we have so many responsibilities between church, family, and work that we are always running from one thing to another. I think Utah is always going to seem inherently unfriendly on some levels to non-LDS people because of these kind of differences.

I think we LDS people could make a deliberate effort to try and befriend people outside our church and our lifestyle. That's the only way I ever see this sort of thing changing.
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Old 10-12-2009, 12:22 AM
 
Location: vagabond
2,631 posts, read 5,447,341 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
Interesting ideas and they undoubtedly contain much truth.

I think, though, that these kinds of problems are much too complex to simply blame on a small minority of LDS and non-LDs people who are "jerks".

I see problems here as more systemic. I think LDS people have lived here and lived our religion for so long we fail to realize that its less a religion for us than it is an entire lifestyle. Alot of perceived unfriendliness comes from the fact that we have so many responsibilities between church, family, and work that we are always running from one thing to another. I think Utah is always going to seem inherently unfriendly on some levels to non-LDS people because of these kind of differences.
i agree with this. no matter your intentions, or how hard you try, you are always going to be disliked and misunderstood by some.

i think that mormon culture, including the level of activity and commitment to the church is scary to some people that don't understand it, and irritating even to some that do, simply because of the fact that there is always something going on.

Quote:
I think we LDS people could make a deliberate effort to try and befriend people outside our church and our lifestyle. That's the only way I ever see this sort of thing changing.
this is precisely what i think needs to happen too. it is taking the easy, lazy way out to associate solely with those in our church; it breeds complacency, miscommunication, and bad feelings.

i didn't mean to leave this out of the equation per se; it was covered under the "there are many other factors" spiel. but i still think that it all eventually boils down to misunderstandings between two people that would otherwise agree and get along well in almost all cases.

i really do think that it is a tiny minority that are, plainly put, jerks. i think that the rest of the mormons and nonmormons that are labeled as jerks are actually innocent of the offense, and usually didn't even know that they had offended anyone. in some cases it is just being ignorant of the social blunders that you are committing. in others, they are actually innocent and really did nothing wrong or inherently socially bad, and we read their actions as offensive anyway.
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Old 10-12-2009, 09:07 PM
 
16 posts, read 40,177 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stycotl View Post

my theories:

1-the majority of utahns/utah mormons are friendly, unbiased individuals.

2-the majority of utah transplants/nonmormons are friendly, unbiased individuals.

3-there is a small minority of both groups that are actually malicious, unfriendly, hateful, etc.

4-those small minorities spoil the rest of the apple barrel in many ways, among them stereotypes and reputation (nonmormon utah transplants are evil, satan-worshipping gentiles; utahns/mormons are selfish, stuck up, gentile-hating jerks).

5-even the large majorities of nice people are affected by this spoiled-apple effect from the not-nice minority.

most of us don't care what religion you do or don't belong to, and i am certain that most of you nonmormons don't care what religion we belong to.
I've been following this thread and I just wanted to share my experiences. While I agree with your points above, I have to disagree with the last. I've lived here for 30 years and my experience has been OVERWHELMINGLY that LDS members do care what religion you belong to. Not so much in the casual encounters like the grocery store or the Target, but neighbors, co-workers, students and anyone else that you interact with on a regular basis cares a great deal. Having been on both sides of the fence, I can attest to the fact that as a saint you don't notice this. But once I left the church and had to answer the awkward questions it became very obvious how much people care. Religion comes up within the first conversation, it is one of the first things people want to know about you. People aren't sure how to interact with you until they know.

That isn't to say that everyone is rude once they find out that you aren't part of their religion, most people are very nice. But there is a definite attitude shift. You become an outsider, not part of the group. It is human nature, it is understandable. But it is still something that you have to deal with as a non-mormon. You will absolutely be judged differently, treated differently, seen differently than a mormon would be. Sometimes this means being ignored or treated rudely and sometimes it means nothing at all.
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Old 10-13-2009, 01:13 AM
 
Location: vagabond
2,631 posts, read 5,447,341 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alene View Post
I've been following this thread and I just wanted to share my experiences. While I agree with your points above, I have to disagree with the last. I've lived here for 30 years and my experience has been OVERWHELMINGLY that LDS members do care what religion you belong to. Not so much in the casual encounters like the grocery store or the Target, but neighbors, co-workers, students and anyone else that you interact with on a regular basis cares a great deal. Having been on both sides of the fence, I can attest to the fact that as a saint you don't notice this.
and i can attest to you, based off of my experience, that you are noticing it overly much.

in the end, it all comes down to anecdotal experience, doesn't it?

i certainly might be strange, or just hang out entirely with more liberal groups of mormons or something, but i am acquainted with *hardly anyone* that cares what religion their friends are except in a purely "getting to know you" manner.

overwhelmingly.

but again, this is my anecdotal experience...

Quote:
But once I left the church and had to answer the awkward questions it became very obvious how much people care. Religion comes up within the first conversation, it is one of the first things people want to know about you. People aren't sure how to interact with you until they know.
i have noticed that religion is more of an accepted topic of conversation in utah. frankly, i enjoy that. but i realize that not everyone does. in particular, people that are already walking on eggshells because of their religious decisions are going to be sensitive to the topic.

that doesn't mean that religion is a bad topic to debate. it just means that you have to understand that some people don't like to talk about it, politics, and various other topics.

because of that, i don't see that religion coming up in a conversation is "caring what religion they are." the word, "caring," implies some level of emotional commitment or concern, which would be the implication that you seem to be trying to make (especially further down in your post).

it is very possible to be curious or conversational about religion without having some kind of concern or agenda regarding the religious choices of the other participants.

Quote:
That isn't to say that everyone is rude once they find out that you aren't part of their religion, most people are very nice. But there is a definite attitude shift. You become an outsider, not part of the group.
that would be rude.

Quote:
It is human nature, it is understandable. But it is still something that you have to deal with as a non-mormon. You will absolutely be judged differently, treated differently, seen differently than a mormon would be.
again, that would be rude.

Quote:
Sometimes this means being ignored or treated rudely and sometimes it means nothing at all.
this should go without saying: that would be rude.

i agree with you on all points here, except for two that i am seeing right now.

a) the above reactions that you claimed are human nature, certainly are, and they are understandable. but they are understandably rude. if someone walks away from you simply because of your religious affiliation, that is rude. in every way possible they are telling you that you are not worth the time it would take to get to know them, the time it would take to break initial acquaintance issues, simply because you worship a different divinity or none at all.

b) i still maintain that this does not happen nearly as much as you think it does. i recognize that this is my *theory* and that it therefore is not a fact. but i also recognize that it (my theory) is a fact in *many* situations, and i would wager more situations than we are aware of.

why? it is precisely because this is tied directly to an extremely sensitive, emotional issue that relies on the interrelation of cultural differences and similarities. the mormons are much less likely to realize when they are being rude, and the nonmormons are less likely to realize when they are expecting the mormons to be rude.

what this equates to is that the mormons often blunder into rude reactions to their nonmormon acquaintances, many times without even meaning to or knowing that they were being abrasive. they just say or ask something that is less than tactful and shows an immense ignorance regarding the fact that not everyone is mormon.

on the other hand, the many nonmormons blunder into those same acquiantances with a chip on their shoulder, *expecting* that the mormons are going to shun them, ridicule them, etc. many of them see it when it isn't even there.

i have personally seen this; i can look back at instances where i was the offender, usually without any clue that i was being rude. it has been a long time since i became aware of this phenomenon though, and i have been very careful of my reactions to people since then. i'm talking back in high school...

one of my epiphanies came when during the latter end of my senior year, i was dating a girl named sarah. months into our relationship i found out she was baptist or lutheran or something (i can't remember now). it completely floored me the idea that i wouldn't recognize a nonmormon that i was that close to (yeah, yeah, i know. i was a naive kid––still am in a lot of ways). but it opened my eyes in some regards. i still dated her until i moved later that summer, and she is still one of the fondest crushes that i have ever had.

anyway, back on track. i have also witnessed firsthand the opposite, and i have seen nonmormons go from hostile to utah and accusatory to every mormon that they meet, to understanding, accepting, and comfortable. i have seen the baseless accusations that come from people paranoid and hateful of their mormon neighbors. again, based off of issues that they had, not that their mormon neighbors had.

my own neighbors currently are very guarded (nonmormons or inactive mormons on both sides of me–notice that i am not sure which; it is telling–here in good old utah valley), and refuse every invitation we give them. we are finally on speaking terms with one set, and the other set we have managed to cooperate on some gardening projects together, but we still walk on eggshells with both families so that they don't think we're gonna try to brainwash them into coming to church or something. this has been going on since we moved here in january.

i had a point; let's see if i can remember it...

basically, i am dead certain that miscommunication is the largest culprit. i am dead certain that most of the mormons and most of the nonmormons in this state would get along splendidly if all they did was give each other the benefit of the doubt and expect that the other was not out for blood.

there is not one side that is more or less guilty as far as i am concerned; the mormons expect the nonmormons to be distant and spiteful and too sensitive to talk normally about normal things (which does include religion sometimes); and the nonmormons anticipate the mormons to be snobbish, cliquish, and too judgmental. both sides are right in a few cases, according to my theories, but wrong in the majority of them.

that's about it. anyone that got this far deserves a pat on the back.

aaron out.
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Old 10-13-2009, 07:11 AM
 
14,380 posts, read 14,207,248 times
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anyway, back on track. i have also witnessed firsthand the opposite, and i have seen nonmormons go from hostile to utah and accusatory to every mormon that they meet, to understanding, accepting, and comfortable. i have seen the baseless accusations that come from people paranoid and hateful of their mormon neighbors. again, based off of issues that they had, not that their mormon neighbors had.

my own neighbors currently are very guarded (nonmormons or inactive mormons on both sides of me–notice that i am not sure which; it is telling–here in good old utah valley), and refuse every invitation we give them. we are finally on speaking terms with one set, and the other set we have managed to cooperate on some gardening projects together, but we still walk on eggshells with both families so that they don't think we're gonna try to brainwash them into coming to church or something. this has been going on since we moved here in january.

i had a point; let's see if i can remember it...

basically, i am dead certain that miscommunication is the largest culprit. i am dead certain that most of the mormons and most of the nonmormons in this state would get along splendidly if all they did was give each other the benefit of the doubt and expect that the other was not out for blood.

there is not one side that is more or less guilty as far as i am concerned; the mormons expect the nonmormons to be distant and spiteful and too sensitive to talk normally about normal things (which does include religion sometimes); and the nonmormons anticipate the mormons to be snobbish, cliquish, and too judgmental. both sides are right in a few cases, according to my theories, but wrong in the majority of them.
.................................................. ..............................................

Without trying to offend the non-LDS community, I think its instructive to note some of the things that I've found troubling about some of the non-Mormon people I have met during my many years as a Utah native. I'll start by saying that I consider myself a "liberal" member of the LDS faith.

Over the years, I've met a segment of non-LDS here that have these characteristics:

1. They make it very clear they are here in Utah "against their will" (like we still have slavery in America). Its because their company or the government transferred them here. Or, they have some sick relative that desperately needed their care. Otherwise, they make it clear they never would have come here in a million years. (I wonder if people who say things like this ever give any thought to how that makes the natives here feel? Its not a religious thing at all. Its kind of like saying "the place you live is so bad, I can't understand why anyone would be here".)

2. They live in a neighborhood, but make absolutely no attempt to make friends with anyone there. You'll never find them in their front yard or a place where you could engage in two minutes of casual conversation with them. They will never approach you and start a conversation.

3. Often, if they have children, their kids attend private school because they feel the public schools here are too crowded, poor quality, and worst of all "too Mormon".

4. As we sometimes see here, they come to Utah and look for neighborhoods away from anyone is Mormon. I guess I could move to Texas and look for a neighborhood free from Baptists and Evangelical Christians, although I think that if you move to Texas that's a pretty dumb thing to do.

5. When they invariably leave the state they say things like "people are so unfriendly here". "The schools are all bad". "I am sure glad to leave that place".

I've seen alot of things during my years here in Utah and its not just Mormons who cause problems. Some non-Mormons come here with a very negative attitude. If you come here with that you either need to change it or consider relocating. Otherwise, your feelings that Utah is a bad place to live will become a self-fulfilling prophecy. I guarantee it.
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