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Hi All...I have been in and out of town, so if you have DM'd me and I haven't responded...please forgive! And that includes the nice person who I disappeared on in the middle of a conversation...she knows who she is.
BVB...I really hesitate to answer your question, as I don't want to tick anyone off. And, to be honest, I am not a business owner, so I truly wouldn't know if a non-member has any less of a chance to be a prosperous business owner in Utah as a church member. I should hope not.
However, those readers who have asked me to share my personal experiences as a non-Mormon in Utah via DM know that I have a dear Mormon friend at work who is originally from California who has shared a lot with me about what he calls "the true Mormon mentality."
He said that when he and his with first got married, they didn't have much and decided to move to Utah right away because, as he said, “the Saints are supposed to take care of their own.”
I am sure that I have incensed a ton of people with that statement. Just bear with me here and remember that I am not saying that this is necessarily the case. I am simply relaying what my dear friend, a church member, has told me.
Truthfully, he told me that they are taught to do business with other Mormons and that they are indirectly taught to offer employment to known Mormons. The way he explained it to me was that if they know a person is LDS, they know that that person will be an upstanding community member and that they will be honest and hardworking.
All that said, I don't think that a church member would ever avoid becoming a client of a known non-member. However, if a church member has to make a choice between becoming a client of another church member or of non-member--AND ALL OTHER THINGS ARE EQUAL--my feeling is that they will go with the church member without hesitation.
Again, however, I don't think that Mormons try to avoid doing business with non-Mormons. I do think that they prefer it, though.
Hi All...I have been in and out of town, so if you have DM'd me and I haven't responded...please forgive! And that includes the nice person who I disappeared on in the middle of a conversation...she knows who she is.
BVB...I really hesitate to answer your question, as I don't want to tick anyone off. And, to be honest, I am not a business owner, so I truly wouldn't know if a non-member has any less of a chance to be a prosperous business owner in Utah as a church member. I should hope not.
i would hope not too.
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However, those readers who have asked me to share my personal experiences as a non-Mormon in Utah via DM know that I have a dear Mormon friend at work who is originally from California who has shared a lot with me about what he calls "the true Mormon mentality."
He said that when he and his with first got married, they didn't have much and decided to move to Utah right away because, as he said, “the Saints are supposed to take care of their own.”
I am sure that I have incensed a ton of people with that statement.
at first, i didn't understand why you thought that this would offend anyone, so i read further and now get the context in which you meant that your friend relayed it.
the church does tell us to take care of each other; that is why we have home/visiting teaching, meetings, parties, welfare, service projects, yadda yadda yadda.
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Just bear with me here and remember that I am not saying that this is necessarily the case. I am simply relaying what my dear friend, a church member, has told me.
Truthfully, he told me that they are taught to do business with other Mormons and that they are indirectly taught to offer employment to known Mormons.
i never received those sunday school lessons.
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The way he explained it to me was that if they know a person is LDS, they know that that person will be an upstanding community member and that they will be honest and hardworking.
i'd say that it is more like a hope than a knowledge.
i have met plenty of mormons that hold the ignorant belief that if someone belongs to their church than they must be a-ok, but this has never been taught anywhere i have lived.
in fact, i have heard plenty of advice to the contrary from church leaders; mentioning the need to be shrewd, not get taken advantage of, etc; stressing the point that the church is here for ignorant folks like me, that not one of the saints is perfect, and that there are as many good and honorable people outside of the church as in.
in fact, it was my mission president that taught me that nonmormons are blessed by the Lord when they pay tithing, when they read scriptures, when they go to church, when they support their leaders, etc.
it makes perfect sense, but i'd never even thought of it on a level like that before him.
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All that said, I don't think that a church member would ever avoid becoming a client of a known non-member.
i've met one or two that would go that far. luckily they tend to be the kind of people that you don't want to hang out or do business with anyway...
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However, if a church member has to make a choice between becoming a client of another church member or of non-member--AND ALL OTHER THINGS ARE EQUAL--my feeling is that they will go with the church member without hesitation.
honestly i don't know too many mormons that give this kind of thing *any* thought. in small towns and tight neighborhoods, i would bet it happens more often than otherwise, but then you would be hard pressed to differentiate a church relationship with a friend relationship that came about because of church.
further, all other things are hardly ever equal, and if a mormon is facing the decision between going two blocks to a nonmormon's store, or going three blocks to a mormon's store, they are probably going to take the former. add in price differences and merchandise selection, and it won't matter if the closer store is run by atheists or gays.
again, this is according to what a mormon thinks and sees in himself and other, *standard* mormons that he hangs out with. i am sure that there are exceptions to this and every other rule.
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Again, however, I don't think that Mormons try to avoid doing business with non-Mormons. I do think that they prefer it, though.
i'll just reiterate that most of us don't care what religion our local businesses are. this is even more true out of state than in utah, i would imagine, so i am curious as to how your cali friend figured this to be normal.
i know that there are plenty of readers right now rolling their eyes and branding me as an apologist. i am telling you what my experience in almost 30 years of church service has been, inside and outside of utah–hell, inside and outside of the usa–and i have only met a handful of individuals that were ever concerned about the religious affiliation of the gas station manager, or the walmart greeter. most of us don't care; people are people are people.
that's my experience. you can take it or leave it. it all ends up the same to me in the end.
PS-not entirely related, but somewhat maybe...
i was at the gas station today and a car pulled up next to mine and a man got out, raised his arms above his head and shouted something (to his family still in the car) along the lines of "welcome to salem, utah!" and then something about the long drive from cali.
i laughed and asked what he was doing all the way out here, and he replied that he was moving in. i asked what neighborhood and he shrugged, saying that he didn't know yet, "we just got here."
i laughed again, and he asked if the mormons around here are strange. i answered that many of them are. he asked if there are any bars in salem and i said that i don't think that there are (i'm still semi new in town myself), but that there are a few up toward provo/orem, and a decent number in slc. he mentioned something else that i can't rememeber, but that alluded to the idea that he didn't realize that i was mormon (why would the mormons help a guy find a bar? why would they talk to catholics from california?), said that he knew that they were gonna try to convert him, and that he was staunch catholic.
i finished pumping my gas, wished him luck, and drove off, wondering if he'll be happy here, or if he has too many preconceived notions about the place. honestly, i think he'll do fine; he seemed confident, smart, and not even remotely shy or self conscious, so i don't think that he will care too much what the rest of us seem to think, but i wonder if his prejudices will make him miserable before he gets a chance, and i wonder about the rest of his family–how will they handle it?
I'm assuming that my colleague didn't either. My feeling is that it is something that it is conjured up on the cultural side, not on the religious side. Nonetheless, it seems to be there.
This is a great example from a seemingly reputable source:
To answer your question, my Cali friend figures that this is the norm because that is his experience. That is his experience both as a Mormon man in California and as a Mormon man who has now lived in Utah for more than 20 years.
Aaron...I am one of those who is rolling her eyes and branding you an apologist.
I am Non LDS and feel right at home here, BUT I am married and have children. It is possible, if I had the same circumstances, that I would feel just as you do now.
I think married non-LDS folks who like UT is probably the one group OP left out. UT is probably better for non-LDS people who are already married.
I try to imagine the reaction of non-members who hold conversations with their true-believing neighbors and are inundated with terms like stake center, bishophric, stake presidency, prophet, apostles, and general authorities.
I'm a convert to the LDS Church of 14 years and some of these terms still seem strange to me.
The best I’ve heard was from a non-LDS student at BYU who got invited to a Sunday evening “Stake Fireside,” which was basically a devotional or motivational talk given to several congregations of students.
He interpreted it as a “Steak Fireside,” or a big BBQ. Of course he skipped dinner that evening to be good and hungry for those delicious steaks. He may have gotten fed with the Word, but his stomach was still empty at the end of night.
My feeling is that it is something that it is conjured up on the cultural side, not on the religious side. Nonetheless, it seems to be there.
Living back east where there weren't so many members I didn't experience this. But since we moved out west to an area where our small town has several stakes I've seen this a little more, a mixing of church and personal business.
This attitude backfired on someone in our old ward when we were looking for a realtor. I was sitting in hall during church (sacrament meeting) trying to calm my crying child so we can go back in and join my wife when this guy walks up to me and starts telling me all about a great house he's got listed. Tell me about the house in between meetings, there's plenty of time then, not during the middle of sacrament meeting. It just seemed inappropriate and disrespectful. We ended up going with a non-LDS realtor we met at an open house instead, not because she was non-LDS but because we liked her and thought she'd do good work for us.
The best I’ve heard was from a non-LDS student at BYU who got invited to a Sunday evening “Stake Fireside,” which was basically a devotional or motivational talk given to several congregations of students.
He interpreted it as a “Steak Fireside,” or a big BBQ. Of course he skipped dinner that evening to be good and hungry for those delicious steaks. He may have gotten fed with the Word, but his stomach was still empty at the end of night.
My sister has a similar story. She moved to Utah from Tennessee. She's a nurse so she's working at the one big hospital in southern Utah. A fellow employee asked where she lived. She told him/her, and the person replied, "Oh, there's a great stake house there." She also interpreted as steak house, and kept wondering where it was. She thought, "Oh, I'll have to take Dad to dinner there some day." When she told our brother the story, he told her she couldn't go out alone anymore.
JaneyBlu. Your post was very articulate and well written. I am planning on moving to Utah in 2010 to start a new business.
I too, am not of the LDS faith, and have wondered if this fact will make it more difficult to do business in Utah. After reading your post, I believe that this will pose a serious obstacle, as I am unable to talk about mission, and other aspects of the LDS faith which are a normal part of their everyday dialog.
The social aspect for me is not as much of a concern, as I am married and have 3 adult children. My religious views are Christian conservative so I don't have a problem with LDS values, and agree with much of what they stand for.
It is my hope, that great service and price will win out.
Thanks again for your post. Good luck with finding someone, you sound like a great person.
Thanks Janey. This is what I think as well. Once again, it is my hope that providing a quality product at a superior price, will influence a buying decision.
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