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Old 07-06-2009, 04:15 PM
 
183 posts, read 798,180 times
Reputation: 148

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Hi everyone. I rarely post, but I have been following the Utah forum for a couple of years now and I think that it is an incredibly useful tool for those people who are considering a move to this beautiful state. In keeping with that idea, I wanted to post a little about my experience living here as single, non-Mormon female.

My intent is not to cultivate any anti-Utah sentiment or to discourage anyone in my demographic from moving here. I simply feel that sharing my experience in this forum will help anyone considering a move to Utah to make a more informed decision.

That said, I will say that I have had a difficult time fitting in and living here. I moved here almost 2.5 years ago for a job opportunity.

Reading through the threads in this forum, I often see people who have similar fears about fitting in, dating, etc.--and for every question, there are several people who pipe in with words of encouragement. Yes, there are neighborhoods that are less conservative and more diverse. And yes, maybe only half of the people in Salt Lake proper (which is actually quite small relative to the size of SL Valley) are LDS. But make no mistake about it, Utah revolves around the Mormon culture and you can feel it everywhere you go.

Some people who are not LDS say that they moved here from elsewhere and have never had a problem. I feel that these people generally (not exclusively) fall in to one of two categories. Either they are still in the honeymoon phase of their move to Utah OR they greatly value Utah for all it has to offer in terms of outdoor recreation and live very active lifestyles. Again, this is just my opinion. Obviously, this doesn’t apply to everyone. This is just an observation.

But, yes, there are big cultural differences that most people notice when they move to Utah. Recently, stycotl made some comments on a thread that I thought were spot on. He said that:

“Mormon culture bleeds into almost all aspects of society in Utah, from politics to school curriculum. There is nothing inherently wrong with that-to a degree-and beside that, this is an issue for another thread, but Utah definitely has a different culture.”

I think that what stycotl wrote above was very well put. Though I disagree with Utah being "mostly the same as anywhere else you go," as he said in that same thread, I really appreciate a member of the local dominant culture acknowledging the huge differences that exist. They do exist--no doubt about it--and it can be difficult for people who are not familiar with the local culture to become acclimated.

I think that the issue may be that people who are lifelong Utahns or members of the local dominant culture may not realize how quirky Utah seems to outsiders because this is what they know. I could name many things, including the liquor laws (that are finally changing), but really it is an overall feel that you get. Perhaps that feeling comes from the fact that many people seem a little naive or closed off to the world outside, regardless of how much they've traveled or where they served their missions...or the way that some children exclude others because they are not a part of the same church or culture (I say this from first hand experience, as my younger siblings and I suffered terribly when we lived here as youngsters). Many people, Mormon and non-Mormon alike, call Utah a “bubble” with good reason. The culture is vastly different from anywhere else and it is rock solid! Utah is a microcosm…and to live here means being exposed to that culture. And the people who make up that culture, as nice as they may be, can at times be extremely judgmental.

Many people come to this forum asking about whether or not Mormons are taught to shun those of us who are not members of the church. While I don’t think that the bishop stands in front of the church telling people to shun non-members each Sunday, I don’t think that it is a simple question of “birds of a feather flocking together” either. I do feel that church members do tend to have more in common with each other and, therefore, “flock together.” However, I also think that the church teaches its members that it is “the one true church”--and I think that this necessarily breeds some feelings of superiority in the community, especially since the majority of Utahns are LDS. I also think that many people will deny that this happens because it is a difficult thing to admit to. I don’t think that this means that Mormons treat people poorly--quite the contrary, in fact. I just think it means that there something akin to racism that non-Mormons deal with to a certain extent. It is much more covert than it is overt…but it is there and I am thrilled that there are non-Mormons out there who live in Utah and never experience it or notice it.

Just my humble opinion here, but I feel that many locals are quick to jump to Utah's defense when these threads come up. And believe me, when I am traveling and people tease me about living in Utah (I have heard many jokes on TV too), I am the first to tell them that they have no idea what they are talking about. Utah is beautiful state and a natural wonderland. It is also friendly, laid back and very clean…all great traits that are tough to find elsewhere. However, these threads come up for a reason. People are curious for a reason. If there were absolutely no truth to some of the rumors about living in Utah, it wouldn’t continue to come up.

Yes, only half of the people in Salt Lake proper might be LDS, but the statement is a bit misleading for people considering a move here. Salt Lake proper is not huge and many of the non-Mormons that live in the area include immigrants, a large gang population and people of meager means. I know that this sounds horrible and, believe me, I don’t want to spark any controversy here. I just don’t want for people to expect that the half of Salt Lake proper that is not LDS to be comprised of mostly well-read yuppie non-Mormons that drink their wine and go to the ballet. Yes, there are many who live here who do--but it is not the entire non-LDS half of the city.

And yes, you can find some neighborhoods that are less conservative than others, but they are often very expensive areas where the houses are smaller and older, such as Sugarhouse or the Avenues. If you want to pay less and get more house for your money, you must look in the newer, more suburban areas like Sandy, Draper, South Jordan and others. You may pay less and get more house for your money, but you are certainly far away from the more liberal and diverse areas of the Salt Lake metro area--and that can be difficult for single people or families concerned about heavy Mormon influence.

The singles scene is also not typical here and dating can be difficult. Many people, Mormon and non-Mormon alike, tend to marry very young in Utah and I feel that the pickins’ are slim. I don’t mean that there aren’t any good men/women out there. I just mean that the percentage of the population that is single and professional in this state is far less than anywhere else, I’m willing to bet.

Things have been especially tough for me in this realm. As I have mentioned in other threads, I haven’t had great luck in meeting people here. My opinion is that single people here (or men, at least) tend to either be the mountain man type who lives for the outdoor recreation or the Nascar-loving/beer drinkin type--neither of which are my “type.” I am more into the intellectual type male--and single thirty-something intellectual men seem to be few and far between. There are also many men who are divorced and looking to connect with someone, but many have children, which is fine, but not ideal for a girl in her thirties who is looking to have a family of her own one day. Many of them are LDS as well and have a very clear idea of what they want their life to be--and that typically means finding a Mormon wife with whom they can build a life that revolves around the church. In other words, most of them are looking for a girl who is also LDS.

In the end, I really think that your experience in Utah as a non-Mormon depends largely on how involved with the community you are. If you would be bothered by having some colleagues that graciously decline to partake in happy-hour (and blush when you ask), then it may not be the place for you. If you would be bothered by feeling judged sometimes (it happens), then it may not be the place for you. If you are single, professional, over thirty and looking to date, my feeling is that it is definitely not the place for you. ;-)

If, however, you are not bothered by any of the above and are looking for a beautiful place that is clean, friendly, affordable and offers a myriad of outdoor recreational activities, Utah could be a great place to set up shop.

I have avoided using any specific examples of the difficulties I have personally experienced in Utah in this post, just because I don’t want to spark a giant online controversy. However, I am more than willing to share my experience with the world if anyone is interested hearing the problems I have personally experienced as a non-Mormon in Utah.

Best of luck to all!
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Old 07-06-2009, 04:39 PM
 
Location: The other side of the mountain
2,502 posts, read 6,943,261 times
Reputation: 1301
I am very sorry that you feel like you have had trouble finding your niche in Utah. I am Non LDS and feel right at home here, BUT I am married and have children. It is possible, if I had the same circumstances, that I would feel just as you do now. I have also made no bones about the fact that the culture here does taking some getting used to. Some can get used to it, and some can't. Just as I could never get the hang of living in Alaska. Been there, done that, and didn't like it.

Your post was very eloquent and well put. I hope you are able to find a place that might suit you a little better than Utah does!

Best of luck to you!!
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Old 07-06-2009, 04:41 PM
 
Location: Castle Rock, Co
1,613 posts, read 3,219,928 times
Reputation: 969
I honestly feel that 99% of what you have said is very correct.. I am realizing more and more how much different things are here and most of it does stem off of the religion in some fashion. I really dont even talk religion or politics with anyone here because you can clearly tell who has grown up here and who hasnt by there views.


and honestly, people say its a great place to raise kids. Im not sure about that. It is a very safe place with a million things to do but kids here are freaking out of control. Parents are to busy trying to be there friends or live there own lives (since they had there kids at 20 at the latest) and just give no boundries. I very rarely see well behaved young kids here.

Other then that I love this place. If you want to enjoy the outdoors, wake up the beautiful scenery every day and enjoy all 4 seasons then id recomend the place
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Old 07-06-2009, 05:10 PM
 
14,300 posts, read 14,088,313 times
Reputation: 45408
I think Janey wrote a good post. I agree the LDS culture in Utah does pose huge challenges for many people who move here from outside the state. I do agree that many people in Utah seem naive or "closed off" as Janey puts it. I have had too many conversations over the years that seem either intentionally or unintentionally to revolve around the church. Too many people will begin any friendly conversation with members or non-members by talking about "their son that is on a mission", their daughter that is "getting married in the temple", or mention some church calling that they hold. There is whole vocablulary or nomenclature that typically surrounds such conversations. It does reak of a certain narrowness. I try to imagine the reaction of non-members who hold conversations with their true-believing neighbors and are inundated with terms like stake center, bishophric, stake presidency, prophet, apostles, and general authorities. If you are a non-member, I can also imagine that this could seem very intimidating as well as strange.

Perhaps, I am defensive of Utah because I do place a great weight on all the outdoor activities and scenic beauty that this state offers. Also, being married with a family things like dating and partying are certainly not major issues to me.

I do find it a bit amusing how many outsiders bring up the liquor laws as a starting point for complaints about Utah. They are different than many states. Yet, I am surprised at the importance some seem to attach to this. Is it really this important? If so, why?

Not having been in the "dating scene" for years, I can't speak to many of Janey's points other than one. She describes a certain "mountain man type" single male. I would bet this is not unique to Utah at all. I would bet that there are a large number of men in this category in most of the Western states because outdoor recreation is the reason they came here. Intellectual men do exist here. Many marry young. I think I read that the average age for marriage here is 2 or more years younger than the national average.

Its tough. I know despite all the good things some of us say about Utah that is not for everyone. If the pros don't outweigh the cons as a reason to live here than I would not stay. Life is too short to be in a place that makes you unhappy. I hope no one takes this as a "Utah love it, or leave it" statement. Its not. Many of us long time residents would prefer a more diverse and friendly community. However, the reality is that the LDS Church isn't going to vanish. Nor, are its members going to experience any instant change in attitudes. I wish you and others who are less than happy here peace and happiness with decisions either to move or stay put.
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Old 07-06-2009, 05:42 PM
 
47 posts, read 156,838 times
Reputation: 59
Janey I read your post with great interest - thanks for taking the time to write it.
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Old 07-06-2009, 10:42 PM
 
Location: East Millcreek
550 posts, read 2,161,015 times
Reputation: 143
Great observations. I feel that we board regulars sometimes can act oblivious to how it really is in Utah, just because we have had great experiences with Utah; in turn, we resort to tooting our horns about it when someone posts something negative. It seems as if Utah is the farthest thing from one size fits all: you either love it here, or you dislike it here. Not a lot of gray area in between. Myself, I've been living in Utah most of my life (all of my memories consist of this place) and find it a wonderful, wonderful place. But this is just further proof that depending on who you are, where you move, or perhaps even how you do on the crap shoot of moving to another state, results may vary.
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Old 07-07-2009, 01:40 AM
 
183 posts, read 798,180 times
Reputation: 148
Thanks to all for your comments...

I wanted to quickly respond to a couple of things markg91359 said.

Yes, I am not a fan of the liquor laws. However, it isn't because alcohol is important to me. It has more to do with what these laws seem to stand for. Without going into how strange some of them are, I will just say that in general the laws seem to pressure people into adapting certain ways of life, such as not drinking or smoking. I don't know what these quirky laws really mean, but I think it would be fairly easy for people to conclude that it is an indirect way of imposing certain beliefs on the greater population. Again, just my opinion here...

And about the "mountain man"...I think that you are absolutely right. I don't think that the "mountain man" is unique to Utah at all. I was just saying that there are many of them here who are single and they aren't really my type, so dating hasn't been easy. And yes, intellectual men certainly exist here too, but I don't think that they make up the bulk of single non-LDS men over thirty in Utah.

Utah is an amazing place and I will call it home for a while longer. However, I don't see myself staying here long term. Perhaps another year or two...
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Old 07-07-2009, 02:00 AM
 
124 posts, read 235,970 times
Reputation: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneyBlu View Post
Hi everyone. I rarely post, but I have been following the Utah forum for a couple of years now and I think that it is an incredibly useful tool for those people who are considering a move to this beautiful state. In keeping with that idea, I wanted to post a little about my experience living here as single, non-Mormon female.

My intent is not to cultivate any anti-Utah sentiment or to discourage anyone in my demographic from moving here. I simply feel that sharing my experience in this forum will help anyone considering a move to Utah to make a more informed decision.

That said, I will say that I have had a difficult time fitting in and living here. I moved here almost 2.5 years ago for a job opportunity.

Reading through the threads in this forum, I often see people who have similar fears about fitting in, dating, etc.--and for every question, there are several people who pipe in with words of encouragement. Yes, there are neighborhoods that are less conservative and more diverse. And yes, maybe only half of the people in Salt Lake proper (which is actually quite small relative to the size of SL Valley) are LDS. But make no mistake about it, Utah revolves around the Mormon culture and you can feel it everywhere you go.

Some people who are not LDS say that they moved here from elsewhere and have never had a problem. I feel that these people generally (not exclusively) fall in to one of two categories. Either they are still in the honeymoon phase of their move to Utah OR they greatly value Utah for all it has to offer in terms of outdoor recreation and live very active lifestyles. Again, this is just my opinion. Obviously, this doesn’t apply to everyone. This is just an observation.

But, yes, there are big cultural differences that most people notice when they move to Utah. Recently, stycotl made some comments on a thread that I thought were spot on. He said that:

“Mormon culture bleeds into almost all aspects of society in Utah, from politics to school curriculum. There is nothing inherently wrong with that-to a degree-and beside that, this is an issue for another thread, but Utah definitely has a different culture.”

I think that what stycotl wrote above was very well put. Though I disagree with Utah being "mostly the same as anywhere else you go," as he said in that same thread, I really appreciate a member of the local dominant culture acknowledging the huge differences that exist. They do exist--no doubt about it--and it can be difficult for people who are not familiar with the local culture to become acclimated.

I think that the issue may be that people who are lifelong Utahns or members of the local dominant culture may not realize how quirky Utah seems to outsiders because this is what they know. I could name many things, including the liquor laws (that are finally changing), but really it is an overall feel that you get. Perhaps that feeling comes from the fact that many people seem a little naive or closed off to the world outside, regardless of how much they've traveled or where they served their missions...or the way that some children exclude others because they are not a part of the same church or culture (I say this from first hand experience, as my younger siblings and I suffered terribly when we lived here as youngsters). Many people, Mormon and non-Mormon alike, call Utah a “bubble” with good reason. The culture is vastly different from anywhere else and it is rock solid! Utah is a microcosm…and to live here means being exposed to that culture. And the people who make up that culture, as nice as they may be, can at times be extremely judgmental.

Many people come to this forum asking about whether or not Mormons are taught to shun those of us who are not members of the church. While I don’t think that the bishop stands in front of the church telling people to shun non-members each Sunday, I don’t think that it is a simple question of “birds of a feather flocking together” either. I do feel that church members do tend to have more in common with each other and, therefore, “flock together.” However, I also think that the church teaches its members that it is “the one true church”--and I think that this necessarily breeds some feelings of superiority in the community, especially since the majority of Utahns are LDS. I also think that many people will deny that this happens because it is a difficult thing to admit to. I don’t think that this means that Mormons treat people poorly--quite the contrary, in fact. I just think it means that there something akin to racism that non-Mormons deal with to a certain extent. It is much more covert than it is overt…but it is there and I am thrilled that there are non-Mormons out there who live in Utah and never experience it or notice it.

Just my humble opinion here, but I feel that many locals are quick to jump to Utah's defense when these threads come up. And believe me, when I am traveling and people tease me about living in Utah (I have heard many jokes on TV too), I am the first to tell them that they have no idea what they are talking about. Utah is beautiful state and a natural wonderland. It is also friendly, laid back and very clean…all great traits that are tough to find elsewhere. However, these threads come up for a reason. People are curious for a reason. If there were absolutely no truth to some of the rumors about living in Utah, it wouldn’t continue to come up.

Yes, only half of the people in Salt Lake proper might be LDS, but the statement is a bit misleading for people considering a move here. Salt Lake proper is not huge and many of the non-Mormons that live in the area include immigrants, a large gang population and people of meager means. I know that this sounds horrible and, believe me, I don’t want to spark any controversy here. I just don’t want for people to expect that the half of Salt Lake proper that is not LDS to be comprised of mostly well-read yuppie non-Mormons that drink their wine and go to the ballet. Yes, there are many who live here who do--but it is not the entire non-LDS half of the city.

And yes, you can find some neighborhoods that are less conservative than others, but they are often very expensive areas where the houses are smaller and older, such as Sugarhouse or the Avenues. If you want to pay less and get more house for your money, you must look in the newer, more suburban areas like Sandy, Draper, South Jordan and others. You may pay less and get more house for your money, but you are certainly far away from the more liberal and diverse areas of the Salt Lake metro area--and that can be difficult for single people or families concerned about heavy Mormon influence.

The singles scene is also not typical here and dating can be difficult. Many people, Mormon and non-Mormon alike, tend to marry very young in Utah and I feel that the pickins’ are slim. I don’t mean that there aren’t any good men/women out there. I just mean that the percentage of the population that is single and professional in this state is far less than anywhere else, I’m willing to bet.

Things have been especially tough for me in this realm. As I have mentioned in other threads, I haven’t had great luck in meeting people here. My opinion is that single people here (or men, at least) tend to either be the mountain man type who lives for the outdoor recreation or the Nascar-loving/beer drinkin type--neither of which are my “type.” I am more into the intellectual type male--and single thirty-something intellectual men seem to be few and far between. There are also many men who are divorced and looking to connect with someone, but many have children, which is fine, but not ideal for a girl in her thirties who is looking to have a family of her own one day. Many of them are LDS as well and have a very clear idea of what they want their life to be--and that typically means finding a Mormon wife with whom they can build a life that revolves around the church. In other words, most of them are looking for a girl who is also LDS.

In the end, I really think that your experience in Utah as a non-Mormon depends largely on how involved with the community you are. If you would be bothered by having some colleagues that graciously decline to partake in happy-hour (and blush when you ask), then it may not be the place for you. If you would be bothered by feeling judged sometimes (it happens), then it may not be the place for you. If you are single, professional, over thirty and looking to date, my feeling is that it is definitely not the place for you. ;-)

If, however, you are not bothered by any of the above and are looking for a beautiful place that is clean, friendly, affordable and offers a myriad of outdoor recreational activities, Utah could be a great place to set up shop.

I have avoided using any specific examples of the difficulties I have personally experienced in Utah in this post, just because I don’t want to spark a giant online controversy. However, I am more than willing to share my experience with the world if anyone is interested hearing the problems I have personally experienced as a non-Mormon in Utah.

Best of luck to all!
Thanks you! Your post was well written and very insightful.

I think that the reason that I can relate to this post is that I was born and raised in the Bible Belt so religion, racial ideals and cultural ideals also shape alot of the politics in my city and state.

Some people come here and they hate it. They feel like the people here are too narrow minded and old fashioned. Then again some people come here and love the "down home values and people". It just depends on the person and where they come from.

I too will defend my home state and believe me, I too have been on the end of many jokes especially with this thick Southern Belle accent I have going on, but I will also give people who ask me about my city and state the truth.

It is not all gumdrops, ice cream and roses. There is latent racism, poverty, and bigotry just as much as there are beautiful summers, wonderful people, good food, and perfect Spring days. Fact of the matter is people deserve to know the whole truth from various POV.

Thanks again for yours.


ETA: I am interested in hearing about the varied experiences that you have had in SLC. Please feel free to DM any time.
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Old 07-07-2009, 07:30 AM
 
Location: Mostly in my head
19,855 posts, read 65,574,293 times
Reputation: 19374
Dating from an older perspective is just as bad. As a non-LDS in my late 50s when I moved here, all I met were divorced LDS, gays, and a lot of married men. While I'm sure that's not all the types of men in UT, it's all I met when looking for dates. So I gave up!
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Old 07-07-2009, 09:21 AM
 
139 posts, read 499,352 times
Reputation: 159
Default Utah Culture

Perhaps I'm fairly biased, I'm a member of the flock, born and raised here, but have also lived elsewhere throughout the country and have just returned to Utah after about 15 years of living outside of Utah (most recently in Austin, TX).

With that being said, I think the culture is what it is. The Mormon influence in Utah is undeniable, but Utah was founded by Mormons, and was and continues to be governed by Mormons, for better or for worse. The culture that exists here is a result of a major denomination being in control of the state (religiously, culturally, legislatively, artistically, etc...)for over 150 years. It's likely not going away.

I'm not sure I'd go as far as to say that the culture is akin to covert racisim as the OP implied, however, I can understand and appreciate the difficulties that one must face here when not part of the dominant culture. However, those regional cultural differences exist across the nation. In many parts of the south for example, evangelical Christianity is the norm, with "Have a Blessed Day", "WWJD", "Christian Owned and Operated"...etc... found in businesses, govt. offices, and the like. "Dry" counties are frequent, and the restrictions on alcohol in these counties make the Utah alcohol oddities appear minimal.

While I don't want to minimize the cultural oddity here in Utah, I do think that it's like any other area in the world that has a dominant culture. And one's experience in that culture is colored by their ability to understand the cultural differences and adapt to them. Finding a good social support network and focusing on the positive things of the culture can go a long way to making an experience a positive one vs. a negative one where nothing is as we want it to be.
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