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Old 12-12-2016, 10:05 AM
 
17,219 posts, read 12,099,241 times
Reputation: 17153

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Quote:
Originally Posted by texasdiver View Post
What parking lot police? I looked all over and there isn't a single sign stating the parking is restricted in any way to shoppers. Or time limited for that matter. There simply aren't any signs at all stating any kind of parking restrictions. At least that I could find and I looked pretty hard. The whole place is called "Cascade Station" implying connection to the light rail station. I also looked online at the Cascade Station web site and couldn't find any information about parking restrictions.
The IKEA lot anyway has several signs indicating it is for customers only.
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Old 12-12-2016, 12:02 PM
 
Location: WA
5,381 posts, read 7,660,858 times
Reputation: 8440
My opinion? A 3rd bridge or a replacement bridge for I-5 is NEVER going to happen without a major transit component included. That either means light rail or some equivalent alternative like a dedicated bus rapid transit system of the sort that is being built along 4th Plain where extra long subway car style buses run on their own dedicated lanes with subway style stops for quick loading and unloading. Dumping ordinary transit buses into car freeway lanes is not going to cut it.

The issue is that Oregon (by which me mainly mean metro Portland) is never going to sign off on any bridge that doesn't make a MAJOR contribution to regional mass transit. Portlanders have zero interest in any bridge that will dump a whole bunch more Washington commuters onto their streets and freeways with no corresponding Washington participation in regional mass transit solutions. No Portland voter in their right mind would ever vote for or approve a car only bridge expansion. Never going to happen. ESPECIALLY some new bridge like the proposed East County bridge from Camas to Troutdale. Portlanders would have zero interest in the hundreds of millions of dollars of construction and road improvements that would be needed to tie that kind of new bridge into already jam packed I-84 just so Camas and east Vancouver commuters can avoid the 205 bridge.

That said, major mass transit doesn't have to be light rail. The Portland area has already invested heavily in light rail and has the infrastructure, trains, maintenance, etc already in place. So there are economies of scale to expanding light rail rather than trying something new. But if it ultimately made more sense to put in place some other kind of major mass transit system between Vancouver and Portland that would probably fly. A new heavy rail subway system under the river like BART would be even more expensive and wouldn't integrate with Portland at all so that is unlikely. But a very high quality bus rapid transit system with large articulated high speed buses in their own dedicated lanes running from Vancouver to Portland could make sense. Especially as the yellow line light rail running towards Vancouver to the Expo Center is pretty slow and on surface streets. Portland is also looking at bus rapid transit for some SE corridor routes.

But bottom line. Vancouver is never getting another bridge without committing to a MAJOR investment in regional mass transit. Whether that is light rail or something else who knows. But a new car-only bridge? That is pure fantasy.

Last edited by texasdiver; 12-12-2016 at 12:14 PM..
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Old 12-13-2016, 07:09 PM
 
Location: WA Desert, Seattle native
9,398 posts, read 8,806,519 times
Reputation: 8807
Quote:
Originally Posted by texasdiver View Post
My opinion? A 3rd bridge or a replacement bridge for I-5 is NEVER going to happen without a major transit component included. That either means light rail or some equivalent alternative like a dedicated bus rapid transit system of the sort that is being built along 4th Plain where extra long subway car style buses run on their own dedicated lanes with subway style stops for quick loading and unloading. Dumping ordinary transit buses into car freeway lanes is not going to cut it.

The issue is that Oregon (by which me mainly mean metro Portland) is never going to sign off on any bridge that doesn't make a MAJOR contribution to regional mass transit. Portlanders have zero interest in any bridge that will dump a whole bunch more Washington commuters onto their streets and freeways with no corresponding Washington participation in regional mass transit solutions. No Portland voter in their right mind would ever vote for or approve a car only bridge expansion. Never going to happen. ESPECIALLY some new bridge like the proposed East County bridge from Camas to Troutdale. Portlanders would have zero interest in the hundreds of millions of dollars of construction and road improvements that would be needed to tie that kind of new bridge into already jam packed I-84 just so Camas and east Vancouver commuters can avoid the 205 bridge.

That said, major mass transit doesn't have to be light rail. The Portland area has already invested heavily in light rail and has the infrastructure, trains, maintenance, etc already in place. So there are economies of scale to expanding light rail rather than trying something new. But if it ultimately made more sense to put in place some other kind of major mass transit system between Vancouver and Portland that would probably fly. A new heavy rail subway system under the river like BART would be even more expensive and wouldn't integrate with Portland at all so that is unlikely. But a very high quality bus rapid transit system with large articulated high speed buses in their own dedicated lanes running from Vancouver to Portland could make sense. Especially as the yellow line light rail running towards Vancouver to the Expo Center is pretty slow and on surface streets. Portland is also looking at bus rapid transit for some SE corridor routes.

But bottom line. Vancouver is never getting another bridge without committing to a MAJOR investment in regional mass transit. Whether that is light rail or something else who knows. But a new car-only bridge? That is pure fantasy.
I generally agree with this. However, why should Washington help finance Tri-Met? OK, there are some reasons why they should. To increase Vancouver commerce and commuter travel time to Portland. But why should WA believe commerce would increase? It won't. Reason: WA sales tax, OR no sales tax.

Why should Washington not help finance Tri-Met? This is a little more complicated, but it offers stronger arguments. Washington doesn't really care about access into Oregon, and it goes back to the above...keep WA shoppers In-State for tax reasons. Also, Vancouver wants to increase job creation in their city and state. Clark County, while part of the PDX metro, is really self-involved in the sense of keeping jobs in their county. You won't hear this from politicians from either side, but you betcha it is underlying.

This can also be seen in the Clark Co./Vancouver plans for major riverfront development. The planning and land use aspects of this are well underway.

Last edited by pnwguy2; 12-13-2016 at 07:23 PM..
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Old 12-13-2016, 09:47 PM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,661 posts, read 57,789,143 times
Reputation: 46126
We... WA just are not keen feeding our mass transit into the JOKE of the North Interstate Light Rail line. 45 min of unsafe Mass transit travel on a route you can drive in 7 minutes.(safely... no knife attacks while driving)

30 min door to door; Battleground to DWTN Portland is fully possible if MT is done correctly.

If STUCK with MAX... Much smarter / FASTER to run a Lloyd Center Portland > Vancouver line from I-205. Still STUCK on 'surface routes' once you hit Portland (so we can't expedite your trip to Beaverton till we get MAX off the STREET!)
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Old 12-13-2016, 10:41 PM
 
Location: WA Desert, Seattle native
9,398 posts, read 8,806,519 times
Reputation: 8807
It is a double-edged sword. If WA doesn't buy in to a North Interstate line, you are correct, it won't happen. So in essence, WA is holding this line hostage. How this plays out is yet to be determined. I would guess the only result would be some sort of compromise, and who wants the rail the most. Drama!
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Old 12-14-2016, 01:14 PM
 
Location: WA
5,381 posts, read 7,660,858 times
Reputation: 8440
I'm not arguing or disagreeing with anything you guys are saying. Just pointing out that any new car-only bridges are political non-starters on the Oregon side.

I could see some kid of "deal" that bypasses Tri-Met and pushes a SERIOUS C-Tran expansion into Central Portland and the Lloyd Center area. That sort of thing is common elsewhere in the US like in NYC, for example, where there are suburban rail systems from New Jersey and CT that push into central Manhattan. All kinds of New Jersey PATH trains push into lower Manhattan and have their own subway stops.

But in the end, that sort of thing would be just as expensive or more so than pushing Tri-Met across the river in the other direction.

If rail comes to Clark County what should really happen in my mind is a whole new high speed express rail line along the I-5 corridor that runs from Vancouver into central Portland in about 10 minutes. Not some ridiculous tie-in to the tail end of a surface street line that has to navigate surface street traffic all through North Portland. That sort of thing is common elsewhere too. The NYC metro system is full of local and express lines that parallel each other.

What maybe should have happened 30 or 40 years ago was a second loop line around the metro area. Say a 605 freeway that starts at Wilsonville and loops around to the west through Hillsboro and crosses back across the Columbia up somewhere near Ridgefield. That would have provided a truck route between Seattle and CA for all the through traffic. But that ship as long sailed.

Last edited by texasdiver; 12-14-2016 at 01:57 PM..
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Old 12-14-2016, 03:28 PM
 
Location: WA Desert, Seattle native
9,398 posts, read 8,806,519 times
Reputation: 8807
There were proposals in Portland for a western beltline in the 60's. Right about the same time as the freeway revolt. It never had a chance. I recall reading about one proposal to continue the 205 west of I-5 and then turning north. Today it would destroy thousands of homes and businesses.
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Old 12-15-2016, 11:22 AM
 
Location: WA
5,381 posts, read 7,660,858 times
Reputation: 8440
Quote:
Originally Posted by pnwguy2 View Post
There were proposals in Portland for a western beltline in the 60's. Right about the same time as the freeway revolt. It never had a chance. I recall reading about one proposal to continue the 205 west of I-5 and then turning north. Today it would destroy thousands of homes and businesses.
Yeah, I think these days the only real way to expand mobility through Portland would be to double deck the freeways or massively expand the rail system. Down in Texas where I used to live they went the double deck freeway route in places like Austin. I can't see that flying in Portland but it would be the only way to expand 84 which is in a trench as well as parts of I-5

This is what I-35 looks like all through Central Austin

I don't see Portland going for that look. on I-5 or I-84

The other really horrible spot is Wilsonville where all the freeways converge onto a single bridge across the Willamette which is the only bridge across the river between Portland and Salem. I drive between Vancouver and my parent's house in Salem and Wilsonville is usually the worst spot in the entire drive, even on weekends.

At some point, people are going to have to accept the fact that they live in a major city and start adjusting their thinking accordingly.
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Old 12-15-2016, 06:01 PM
 
Location: WA Desert, Seattle native
9,398 posts, read 8,806,519 times
Reputation: 8807
I was in Austin in the summer of '15, and drove on this exact section. Guess what? It was clogged on both levels. Not sure it is the answer, but atleast it is an option.

Both Portland and Seattle had big freeway plans in the 60's, most of which never came close to being built. Portland actually down-sized a major corridor on the waterfront that was set to become an expressway. Seattle was set to build an eastern expressway called the RH Thompson that would have basically offered an alternative to I-5 to the east. Construction actually began in some areas, but it got caught up in the freeway revolt as well. Portland's Mt. Hood freeway, east/southeast from downtown was close to being built but like in Seattle, the revolt prevented it. I've always wondered what both metros would look like today with these freeways, if built. I don't think it would have been pretty.
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