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Just wondering if anyone else has been following this project and has thoughts.
A deep pocketed real estate development firm has acquired the big plot of land that is bordered by 192nd, 34th, and 176th in East Vancouver. It is the former HP campus. For reference, 192nd and 34th is the corner where the QFC is located. So it is the big plot of land that starts at that corner and runs down along 34th St until the next big intersection which is 176th Ave.
They are planning a big town center with offices, high tech, housing, and retail with lots of green spaces. I am sometimes skeptical of these big project ideas, but seeing how fast the Vancouver waterfront has grown from abandoned industrial land to popular urban destination has been impressive. And with all the social problems dragging down Portland across the river I suspect there will be huge demand for this sort of thing since it will be private land and they can enforce all the anti-vagrancy laws that they want and use private security to run off all the riff raff.
With this plus the new development happening at 192nd and Highway 14 and the other big HP project planned for the quarry land across from Costco it looks like East Vancouver is poised to grow a great deal in the next decade and become a second Vancouver urban center to compete with/complement downtown Vancouver.
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texasdiver
Just wondering if anyone else has been following this project and has thoughts.
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This a a good idea if properly managed and marketed, but.... It's taken 3 owners and 20+ yrs to transform the previous HP Colorado site I worked (in the 1970's) into the regional tech hub. (Was slated to be aerospace, but eventually took anyone they could get as a tenant. Ironically, they are outfitting Electric delivery trucks in the very bay workspace we built electric cars in 1973. https://lightningemotors.com/
The Colorado Springs site is very under utilized, as is Rancho Bernardo.
Ft Collins is nearly full, but by existing high tech, rather than innovation (start-ups).
This COULD be done right, but it will require a very different format than traditional real estate / recruitment.
Ideally.... the CREDC would have got Insitu into the HP site (15 yrs ago), rather than the growth caps and commute hassles they have dealt with in Bingen. (But it's a nice place to live - very few stoplights!).
Bright lights, smoke and mirrors, unattainable RE investment dreams will continue to plague the Clark tech and innovation center. It's a great site for the right combination of businesses. but it's not as magical as Economic Development folks promote. (they are marketers, NOT technical innovators, or job creators) Now THAT's magic!!! You don't first build the factory... you first build the product, then a factory to suit.
If the right partnership of EDU, Engineering, Manufacturing, Technology were to be married onto that site, great things could happen (again)... there were ~5,000 good paying jobs there ONCE. To recreate that (artificially) is a challenge, and impossible for marketeers. Very interesting that hundreds of very successful businesses and employers were spawned from high tech job losses of the 1980's in N Colorado, but only a few in PNW. Here's one that is close by. https://www.sigmadzn.com/. It's not been an easy path.
And here are some renderings of what they say they have in mind
This is very similar to the proposal and renderings that Camas published 15 yrs ago (for downtown / Safeway though the yet to be reclaimed Paper Mill).
This will all happen in due time, but no in my lifetime. I had great hopes when I bought my Camas commercial property in 1995 - 2005, but I don't have enough time to see it happen, or enough dough to wait. All the painful community and development planning meetings... only to have a new administration / planners / goals / progress change / developers selling out to move on (to a project that will create returns in their lifetime)
East Vancouver will bloom again before Camas can procure and detox the Mill Site.
Eventually, it will all be So CA style (Planned community, no gas stations _)
Personally... I would have put a Rubios into the QFC mall and talked it over on Taco Tues ($1.99 fish tacos). Someday, the additional development / dream community will happen, and I will still fondly remember the evenings of watching and listening to the coyotes on what is now 192nd. (was our company picnic area). There was a 4 way stop at Mill Plain and 164th, that was a huge change and disruption to the 'then' rural road. Too bad the YMCA was dis-allowed, I could use a good swim today (and every day) (The land was gifted for free at 192nd and SE 20th (now Candlewood Suites).
The "Haves", will get it their way, then they'll move on to the next 'better' place. Rinse and repeat until the better places are all gone. SE Vancouver is an entire rock pit, so... Take the rocks and build the condos. Make it high density and don't allow 'privacy fencing' or grass
What is different today compared to a decade or two ago is that Portland is struggling with social decay and governance. So I expect there to be much more demand from urbanites seeking a walkable urban environment that is not subject to the dysfunction that characterizes much of Portland today. Add to that, work from home, easy access to PDX, decent schools compared to SE Portland, and the tax advantages of living in Vancouver and I expect this sort of development could really succeed.
Koch Industries, which owns the Georgia Pacific paper plant in Camas does a lot of urban real estate development itself. So they could certainly pull off a redevelopment of the paper mill and Camas waterfront site. They certainly have deep enough pockets. But I'm not sure the type of development they would do is necessarily what Camas would want. They tend to do big car-centric suburban sprawl office park developments in places like Texas.
These are Koch real estate projects in Dallas and Nashville. Big buildings surrounded by a sea of parking. Rather like the Fisher Investments campus.
Last edited by texasdiver; 02-25-2023 at 02:12 PM..
I'm all for it and think it would be great. The devil always lies in the details with these things. Stealth brings up some good points about big plans vs. what could potentially transpire. I think that's the case for most larger projects like this. It has to start with a dream, a big dream! Then find practical ways to make that dream a reality. This last part is the most difficult because it has to attract the right businesses beyond Plan B or Plan C alternatives. HP was a big anchor in the area at one point and still has a presence. But Vancouver must diversify to truly be innovative vs. at the beckon call of 'one' big tech company. Then, when they have layoffs, the area becomes a ghost town of its former self. I honestly think of HP as a dinosaur constantly looking for ways to re-invent itself. The printer or PC businesses are not enough, obviously. Those glory days are gone. There are many articles on the slow death of HP. I guess time will tell if it can rise again.
Lots of states attempt to court the big companies such as Tesla, Google, etc... Texas has pulled many in due to generous offers. We always hear comments about the west coast not being 'business friendly' and that can get political. But what level of friendliness or concessions combined with its natural attractions will be enough to sustain such a business center?
An Innovation Center is on a entirely different level than a Tech Center. That requires attracting talent beyond the standard rung of society who are simply looking for a good job. That's not saying these folks aren't talented or even somewhat innovative at times. But it's not going to have the critical mass required of larger groups of such individuals working collaboratively to do something greater - to truly innovate. For that, most times you need a strong local research university feeding into that innovation machine. That may be the Portland metro's greatest Achilles heel to really get something like this off the ground beyond a tech center of limited business diversity.
I would love to see a third UW satellite campus - SW WA edition. Bothell is the fastest growing university in the state with Tacoma growing as well. Why not UW Vancouver? WSU Vancouver is growing right now with a building project underway planning to offer more. It seems like very slow growth and could that campus ever be enough to attract the best and brightest within WA and beyond?
California is doing something similar with its UC campuses in places like Santa Cruz and Merced. A Cal Poly type university campus would be ideal like Cal Poly SLO. If we could just lift and shift OSU to Vancouver it would be quite a powerhouse to feed such an innovation center. I'm just not sure how many Innovation Centers become something enduring without those types of research institutions to collaborate with and inspire beyond 'internal' R&D within these large corporations (if they choose to move in). It's obviously much more than big fancy buildings. Without the right talent and companies, its just empty commercial space.
That being said, another Tech Center would be fine as a sort of fall back Plan B. That is assuming it can attract the right businesses. It still brings more jobs to the area even if not a startup hotbed of research and innovation.
I would love to see a third UW satellite campus - SW WA edition. Bothell is the fastest growing university in the state with Tacoma growing as well. Why not UW Vancouver? WSU Vancouver is growing right now with a building project underway planning to offer more. It seems like very slow growth and could that campus ever be enough to attract the best and brightest within WA and beyond?
I think there is absolutely ZERO chance that we will see a UW-Vancouver. I think the two flagship universities have basically divided up their turf. WSU has claimed Vancouver, Tri-Cities, Spokane (health sciences) and Everett. UW has claimed Bothell and Tacoma. And all the other cities like Yakima, Spokane, Bellingham, and Olympia are within the zone of one of the other regional universities.
As the state grows, ALL of these various branch campuses should grow and potentially at some point become stand-alone institutions. To be perfectly fair, WSU-Tri Cities probably deserves as much or more investment and expansion as WSU-Vancouver since they have nothing else out there at all (CWU, WSU, and EWU are all over 100 miles away).
The logical thing for Vancouver to do is the following 3 things
1. Expand WSU Vancouver, especially in the STEM, computer science, and health care fields. They have a beautiful campus and good location. I suspect it is mostly a question of budgets for why they aren't expanding faster.
2. Expand Clark College as necessary to focus on 2-year programs
3. Increase partnership with Portland State. Especially if we end up with improved transit between Vancouver and downtown Portland to make that more viable. Portland State already extends in-state tuition to residents of SW Washington. The original I-5 bridge expansion project had light-rail planned between Clark College and PSU. I'm not sure where they are at with that idea now. But Portland State does offer a lot that isn't available at Clark or WSU-Vancouver.
I also think the more that central Portland struggles, the more investment and attention will spill over to this side of the river. One doesn't necessarily want to take advantage of the misfortune or mistakes of another area. But I think it is inevitable. We constantly see Portlanders posting here about moving across the river. It is only logical that the big money real estate development follows and that Vancouver rapidly becomes more urbanized. I would personally much rather see development concentrated in the existing developed core that runs from about downtown Vancouver to 192nd and from the Columbia north to 4th Plain. Rather than endless new sprawl out in Ridgefield, La Center, and all the rural areas out past Battle Ground.
Last edited by texasdiver; 02-26-2023 at 12:52 PM..
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,690 posts, read 57,994,855 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MtnSurfer
I'm all for it and think it would be great. ...
An Innovation Center is on a entirely different level than a Tech Center. That requires attracting talent beyond the standard rung of society who are simply looking for a good job. ...- to truly innovate. For that, most times you need a strong local research university feeding into that innovation machine. ...
I would love to see a third UW satellite campus - SW WA edition. Bothell is the fastest growing university in the state with Tacoma growing as well. Why not UW Vancouver? .... I'm just not sure how many Innovation Centers become something enduring without those types of research institutions to collaborate with and inspire beyond 'internal' R&D within these large corporations (if they choose to move in).
>>>It's obviously much more than big fancy buildings. Without the right talent and companies, its just empty commercial space<<<
...
Derek
Good points.
The right leadershhip, vision, collaboration, would equal tremendous results. (and adequate perpetual funding to sustain)
And ++... all that just happens to be local!, already available, interested, capable, and much of it FREE.
Hundreds of very intelligent, engaged and invested brain power from early retirees and those currently pivotal in Higher Education, Community Development, and Urban growth.
Form a 'Skunk Works' team of no more that 7-10, with subordinate resources. (All those resources, including the team are currently available and identifiable, today) One of the task members must coordinate and collaborate with all higher EDU within 50 miles. Assign some of this to MBA programs at local U's (U of P has some pretty impressive results from their MBA grads, as does WSU and UW and OSU + the private U's nearby are pretty high caliber and invested in the benefit to the community)
Remove all external barriers for the initial concept development. (No border wars, No light rail, no bridges, no boundaries, no silos...)
Identify the core resources pertinent to your objective (EDU, Business, staffing, logisitics, infrastructure)
Nearly all this is clearly identified in existing reports, including Comprehensive Economic Development Strategy (CEDS)
Quantify the potential benefit and objectives, and identify the gaps.
Have this peer reviewed by similar successful regional projects (There are many, especially in the SE USA during the last 20 yrs)
Set a reasonable strategy. That includes everything for Educational contributions, Innovation, Job creation and training, Business incubator services and support, Financial mentoring (SBDC and SCORE are free resources and very active in the region), and present a sustainable and expandable vision.
Review with a group of commercial and civic financiers.
Implement the 'improved' version of this dream, and move it to 'reality'.
Plenty of momentum and expertise to make this work for our next generation employees and entrepreneurs, and community leaders. (Imagine having a hub of innovation and resources where your kids could go and engage, intern, educate, employ, and expand their knowledge and potentially grow their business and their collaborative expertise. (Kids / are really amazing 'thinkers', let's allow them to be 'doers'. )
Personally... after listening to today's Freakonomics Podcast... I'd hire them + their guest (a 'practical economist) John A. List. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_A._List and come up with a really unconventional, but likely the most effective strategy.
John's wife is no slouch, she could help!
Author of Parent Nation: Unlocking Every Child's Potential, Fulfilling Society's Promise.
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,690 posts, read 57,994,855 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MtnSurfer
I'm all for it and think it would be great. The devil always lies in the details ... I honestly think of HP as a dinosaur constantly looking for ways to re-invent itself. ...
The only thing HP has to do with this project, is that they built the building. (and gave a lot to the community when they were HWP, well before HP + A.
HP died pre Y2K, because the company was not capable of grooming successors to the founder's level of business acumen. but... HP developed a lot of great products, companies, hospitals, communities, citizens, and also pioneered many of the benefits workers enjoy today. (Flex hours, profit sharing, Flex time, parental rights...) They also PAID employees to work in schools, an to train teachers to do your job so the teachers could remain engaged in technology and refer lots of future employees! (me ) And that gave me every summer off (without pay) for 10 yrs, so I could go volunteer elsewhere. (As Bill and Dave taught us to do by living the example).
HP had an entreprenuer policy that allowed you to start your own business and have guaranteed employment if you chose to return within 2 yrs. Thus when Steve W and Steve J of AAPL brought their ideas to their HP managers... HP said.. "We don't sell to libraries and achools, we invent and sell to engineers", how about we help you find a Garage!"
Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak highlighted the fact that he had offered his original design for the Apple I personal computer to his former employer, HP, 5 times, but was turned down each time.
I'm sure Bill and Dave would say today... "That was a great decision for Apple and for HP!" and it was.
HP invented and built products for engineers (and they were expensive!!! early entry into a technology, then they moved on to other inventions) Bill and Dave would have never kept printers and business computers as a core business, they would have sold or spun it off. They wanted to LEAD technology, Not bask in the profits.
PARC (previously Xerox) + HP labs was invention central for High Tech USA. Many of their proven inventions have yet to be commercialized, but much started in Palo Alto.
Golden years, then. But plenty of new things to come.
We have a lot to learn from those who've gone ahead and fought their (our) battles.
Last edited by StealthRabbit; 02-26-2023 at 03:58 PM..
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,690 posts, read 57,994,855 times
Reputation: 46171
Quote:
Originally Posted by texasdiver
I think there is absolutely ZERO chance that we will see a UW-Vancouver. I think the two flagship universities have basically divided up their turf. ...
Precisely the WRONG answer, and why thinking in the 'conventional tunnel', leads to tunnel vision and ZERO results. EDU has had 50 + yrs to use their brains and knowledge and vast free information, resources and funding to ADVANCE the USA.
(Still thinking?)
not.
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(Still thinking?) 
