Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Who says? India has lower rates of heart disease than most developed countries, but their rates have increased as their diet has changed.
Most people in India aren't vegetarian.....and dairy can contain just as much saturated fat and cholesterol as beef so, as far as heart disease goes, you shouldn't expect to see much of a difference between the two.
I forgot about the dairy they eat - it's in the paneer and cheeseballs, etc. yogurt, too. I read about the coronary rates on some sites on the Internet. At the time, the stories really were disturbing (and discouraging) to me especially since I make a conscious effort (really not much of an effort as I found I dislike red meat after all - I just ate it because everyone else around me did) to not eat that much red meat and thought it would make a difference preventing heart disease, something which really concerns me. Also, people in India eat a lot of carbs (white flour, rice), which can cause inflammation.
You hear similar things about meat, people claim that they just *need* meat for protein, but we know that people don't and we also know that people don't need dairy for calcium and, not only that, but calcium isn't even the best source of calcium. But most people aren't eating enough green vegetables to meet their calcium needs and they usually prefer to get it from sugary/fatty dairy foods.
In any case, obviously humans don't need the milk of another animal to meet their nutrient needs so dairy can hardly be justified on nutritional grounds.
Ya lost me there. Calcium isn't the best source of calcium?
At any rate, I will stick with what works best for my stomach (not insane amounts of green leafies, which would have me doubled over in pain) and what the DEXA scan and my doctor say. I am not here to debate you on what you think I or anyone else should eat and don't really care about anyone else's opinions on what I do for my health. But thanks for playing!
There is calcium in cow milk, yeah, but I think what some nutritionists are saying is that the processing of milk in our bodies not only doesn't supply our bones with the calcium it needs, but it robs the existing calcium from our very bones that need it to break down those enzymes and you see things like osteoporosis.
This may all be bunk science based on some folks' opinions, idk.
But I don't think folks are coming in here to tell anybody else to eat this or that. We're just trying to figure out what our bodies need and like best.
I know one thing for a fact, the way I was going was NOT working. I did not fear fat, cholesterol, Ribeye steaks, Smash Burgers, back ribs, spare ribs, beef brisket, garlic encrusted prime rib, etc. But along with those things, I tried to mix in some fruit, some veggies, etc., but mostly grossly over-cooked veggies that probably did nothing for me.
There is calcium in cow milk, yeah, but I think what some nutritionists are saying is that the processing of milk in our bodies not only doesn't supply our bones with the calcium it needs, but it robs the existing calcium from our very bones that need it to break down those enzymes and you see things like osteoporosis.
This may all be bunk science based on some folks' opinions, idk.
But I don't think folks are coming in here to tell anybody else to eat this or that. We're just trying to figure out what our bodies need and like best.
I know one thing for a fact, the way I was going was NOT working. I did not fear fat, cholesterol, Ribeye steaks, Smash Burgers, back ribs, spare ribs, beef brisket, garlic encrusted prime rib, etc. But along with those things, I tried to mix in some fruit, some veggies, etc., but mostly grossly over-cooked veggies that probably did nothing for me.
Deep-fried breaded okra and green beans anyone?
I tend to think it's bunk.
I don't fear any food because of its nutritional content (drugs and hormones, yes). Obviously, I don't eat meat, but when it comes to fats, cholesterol, sugar, etc., I avoid as much refined stuff as possible (and TBH, I don't even buy or drink milk; my dairy comes from eggs, butter, cheese, and a rare indulgence in ice cream) and I live by "everything in moderation." And I do mean moderation. I spread out my nutrients among only 1,400-1,500 calories per day in the interest of maintaining a halfway decent figure and trying to lose about 15 pounds, with the vast majority of those calories coming from grains, fruits, and vegetables, and I work out 50-70 minutes at least four times a week. All of that puts me in a place where I tend not to have to worry about a pat of butter on the pan to make a grilled cheese sandwich once or twice a week. If my lipid profile ever becomes a problem, it will be because of menopause, not my lifestyle. If people really want to get fussy about ethics and doing the least harm possible, America would be on one giant diet, and nobody would be fat because people wouldn't be consuming vast quantities of food, period.
If you want to talk about what our bodies like best, if I were to rely on dark green leafies, okra, broccoli, and snap beans (those are the veggie foods highest in calcium) for the calcium required for someone with a risk of osteoporosis, I would have to eat it in quantities that cause me a lot of stomach pain and would have me in the bathroom half the day. I could have some, but not every day, and not that much. Can't take too many pills, either, as kidney stones run in the family, so calcium supplements are out. So, I do eat dairy as part of a balanced non-meat diet because yes, I have to.
I forgot about the dairy they eat - it's in the paneer and cheeseballs, etc. yogurt, too. I read about the coronary rates on some sites on the Internet. At the time, the stories really were disturbing (and discouraging) to me especially since I make a conscious effort (really not much of an effort as I found I dislike red meat after all - I just ate it because everyone else around me did) to not eat that much red meat and thought it would make a difference preventing heart disease
Red meat consumption is consistently linked to heart disease and cancer, but its by no means the only food with health consequences, as such simply avoiding red meat isn't good enough....you have to avoid red meat and replace it with something known to be healthful (e.g., replacing red meat with legumes).
But the premise here isn't true, Indians don't have the highest rate of cardiovascular disease and the vegetarian population has a lower rate of cardiovascular disease then the meat eating population. But one has to remember that India has a lot of poverty and the vegetarians tend to be poorer than the non-vegetarians, so looking at vegetarians in the west gives us a better idea. Western vegetarians have a much lower rate of heart disease than non-vegetarians.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilac110
Ya lost me there. Calcium isn't the best source of calcium?
At any rate, I will stick with what works best for my stomach (not insane amounts of green leafies, which would have me doubled over in pain) and what the DEXA scan and my doctor say. I am not here to debate you on what you think I or anyone else should eat and don't really care about anyone else's opinions on what I do for my health. But thanks for playing!
It should read "dairy isn't the best source of calcium". One doesn't need to consume "insane amounts of green leafies" to meet their calcium needs, but the pitiful amounts the average American eats isn't going to cut it. For example, take the calcium content of some common (cooked) leafy greens:
1 cup bok choy............................180 mg
1 cup collard greens.....................230 mg
1 cup kale....................................150 mg
1 cup mustard greens..................150 mg
1 cup Chinese mustard greens....400 mg
Where as a cup of milk has between 200~300 mg. Given the much higher absorption rates from the above leafy greens, they supply more calcium per cup than milk have have much less calories and are packed with nutrients. And this is to say nothing of other vegan calcium sources, for example, black strap molasses has 180 mg per tablespoon and most non-dairy milks are fortified with calcium which is absorbed just as well as calcium from dairy milk. Legumes are are reasonable source of calcium as well, ranging from 100~200 mg a cup. Almonds have 120 mg per 1/4 cup. Etc. And smaller amounts in most foods. So, by no means, does a vegan need to eat "insane amounts" of leafy greens to meet their calcium needs, all they need to do is include 2~3 servings of calcium rich foods (non-dairy milk, leafy green, blackstrap, almonds, etc) a day.
But in terms of bone health, calcium intake is just one factor, consuming sufficient protein, magnesium, getting enough vitamin D, etc are all important factors. The populations with the highest intake of dairy just so happen to be the populations with the highest rates of osteoporosis, so whatever the reason, not only does dairy consumption not improve ones bone health....it may do the opposite.
Quote:
Originally Posted by McGowdog
There is calcium in cow milk, yeah, but I think what some nutritionists are saying is that the processing of milk in our bodies not only doesn't supply our bones with the calcium it needs, but it robs the existing calcium from our very bones that need it to break down those enzymes and you see things like osteoporosis.
The idea here is that higher protein diets cause calcium loss which is true but may not be significant for the amounts of protein typically consumed by Americans. So dairy is a good source of calcium, its just not the best and its by no means required to meet your calcium needs. This fact, that you don't need to eat dairy, should be reason enough to avoid it because there are good health, ethical and environmental reasons to avoid dairy.
1 cup bok choy............................180 mg
1 cup collard greens.....................230 mg
1 cup kale....................................150 mg
1 cup mustard greens..................150 mg
1 cup Chinese mustard greens....400 mg
What part of "I CAN'T EAT THAT" do you not understand? Hmmm?
At this point, I feel that you are posting just to be argumentive. Sorry. I don't have time for that. Maybe others who CAN eat that will get something out of it, but directing posts about that to me will be falling on blind eyes henceforth.
What part of "I CAN'T EAT THAT" do you not understand? Hmmm?
You can't eat vegetables? Even in that case there are other options, for example non-dairy milks, almonds, blackstrap, etc. But, note as well, that I was responding to your hyperbole, namely, the claim that one would have to eat "insane amounts" of green leafy vegetables to meet their calcium needs....that isn't true at all.
In any case, nutritional recommendations are going to be based on normal people, if someone has a serious digestive disease that limits what they can consume obviously they are going to have to use different guidelines. But your original comments didn't mention digestive problems, instead they just implied that you couldn't get sufficient calcium without dairy which is easy to do for the normal person.
So, returning to the thread topic, people have absolutely no nutritional requirement for the milk of another species and given the health, ethical and environmental issues involved in dairy.....vegans have plenty of reasons to avoid it. Indeed, they have just as much reason to avoid dairy as they do red meat and veal.
Why not just drink a glass of calcium fortified orange juice? Or take a calcium vitamin?
Ooh, you hit on a heartbreak for me. I love orange juice but cannot drink a glass of it for the same reason I cannot have a lot of green leafies: It wreaks havoc on my GI tract. I can bake with citrus, like orange-cranberry muffins or lemon cookies, or add a squirt of lemon to a meal, but a glass of OJ would have me feeling like I was kicked in the stomach. Believe me, if I could have a nice Asian salad with tangerines and all those Roto-Rooter pain-inducing green leafies every day, I would. But I really don't enjoy spending an entire day on the porcelain throne. I've actually had to go to the hospital a couple of times because of it. Crohn's,IBS, whee! Really, sometimes I feel like one of those 90-year-olds who sits around complaining about what they can't eat anymore. And I'm stubborn, because I try, because I actually like the flavors and textures. I did have a salad last night, mixed greens with everything from spinach to dandelion and parsley, and I couldn't finish it and I've been hurting all dang day. This is why I find it extremely irritating when people do not take someone at face value when they say, "Dude, I can't eat leafies. It hurts."
I wish someone would make an alternative milk that didn't make me gag. My SO has lactose intolerance, so I've tried the soy milk (which wouldn't be good for someone with thyroid disease, anyway), the almond milk, the rice milk, the this milk, the that milk, and I just found it all disgusting. He makes these protein shakes with peanut butter, bananas, and chocolate protein powder, and I hoped against hope they would mask the taste, but one mouthful and I could barely keep it down. I'm over the sink with my hand over my mouth and there he is, laughing his arse off. I don't keep milk in the house, but it would be nice to have a bowl of cereal without thinking of some poor cow stuck in a stall hooked up to a machine.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I love orange juice but cannot drink a glass of it for the same reason I cannot have a lot of green leafies: It wreaks havoc on my GI tract. I can bake with citrus, like orange-cranberry muffins or lemon cookies, or add a squirt of lemon to a meal, but a glass of OJ would have me feeling like I was kicked in the stomach. Believe me, if I could have a nice Asian salad with tangerines and all those Roto-Rooter pain-inducing green leafies every day, I would. But I really don't enjoy spending an entire day on the porcelain throne. I've actually had to go to the hospital a couple of times because of it. 
And I'm stubborn, because I try, because I actually like the flavors and textures. I did have a salad last night, mixed greens with everything from spinach to dandelion and parsley, and I couldn't finish it and I've been hurting all dang day. This is why I find it extremely irritating when people do not take someone at face value when they say, "Dude, I can't eat leafies. It hurts." 
I don't keep milk in the house, but it would be nice to have a bowl of cereal without thinking of some poor cow stuck in a stall hooked up to a machine.
