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Old 08-18-2017, 08:04 AM
 
13,395 posts, read 13,406,564 times
Reputation: 35709

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Humans are animals and the food chain is real. We have choices.

 
Old 08-18-2017, 12:48 PM
 
Location: Brackenwood
9,880 posts, read 5,545,707 times
Reputation: 21982
Have a cheesburger...
 
Old 08-19-2017, 11:21 AM
 
29,422 posts, read 22,323,817 times
Reputation: 48078
It's easy to see why many hate vegans.

It's because veganism by default causes meat and dairy eaters to reflect on some very uncomfortable truths, that their insatiable appetite for meat and animal products causes tremendous suffering via torture, rape, and murder of mass produced animals.

So whenever they are confronted with this, it makes them feel guilty and so they react with hostility towards vegans to make themselves feel better. Call them names, but don't provide any meaningful links to show that eating meat and dairy is healthier than plant based diet. Bring up labels such as grass fed or pasture raised or cage free to insinuate that the animals are treated humanely (nope they are not).

I don't have an issue with hunters killing animals with one shot instant kill and then using all parts of the animal. I do have a problem with the way animals are mass tortured in countries around the world to process eggs, milk, steaks, etc. That's no better than mass killing of dolphins or eating dogs.

I've never raised an issue at work when people eat meat for lunch, and no one's criticized me for being vegan.

So for the anti vegan crowd to lump us all in as crazy, hateful fanatics is baseless.
 
Old 08-19-2017, 11:25 AM
 
Location: Brackenwood
9,880 posts, read 5,545,707 times
Reputation: 21982
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburban_Guy View Post

So for the anti vegan crowd to lump us all in as crazy, hateful fanatics is baseless.
Not all of you.... just the ones who wear their smug, moralizing, armchair-psychoanalyst attitudes on their sleeves as in the post above.
 
Old 08-19-2017, 11:47 AM
 
13,395 posts, read 13,406,564 times
Reputation: 35709
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburban_Guy View Post
It's because veganism by default causes meat and dairy eaters to reflect on some very uncomfortable truths, that their insatiable appetite for meat and animal products causes tremendous suffering via torture, rape, and murder of mass produced animals.

So whenever they are confronted with this, it makes them feel guilty and so they react with hostility towards vegans to make themselves feel better. Call them names, but don't provide any meaningful links to show that eating meat and dairy is healthier than plant based diet. Bring up labels such as grass fed or pasture raised or cage free to insinuate that the animals are treated humanely (nope they are not).
Here we go again. I'm confused.

Suburban Guy (and others), you say vegans cause meat eaters to reflect on uncomfortable truths. We have said REPEATEDLY that we experience no discomfort at all eating meat. We know where meat comes from. We are not delusional. WHY don't you believe us?

Vegans, you say that meat eaters feel guilty. We have said REPEATEDLY that we don't feel guilty. WHY don't you believe us?

When someone tells you the truth to your face over and over again and you refuse to believe it, who looks delusional?

Why can't we get past these two false narratives? This conversation is so bizarre. How much audacity does it take to tell people that their truth (no guilt, shame, delusions regarding meat) really isn't their truth?

Is there anything more to this conversation besides these false ideas around guilt?

Are we just being trolled?

I'd like to see peaceful coexistence between vegans and meat eaters and respect for each others choices. What am I missing?
 
Old 08-20-2017, 03:58 AM
 
35,309 posts, read 52,002,522 times
Reputation: 30998
Quote:
Originally Posted by convextech View Post
This is what I personally dislike about Veganism.

The holier-than-thou, pompous attitudes of many vegans and vegetarians.
.
This about sums it up for me..
 
Old 08-20-2017, 06:14 AM
 
Location: Bella Vista, Ark
77,772 posts, read 104,140,979 times
Reputation: 49244
Quote:
Originally Posted by jambo101 View Post
This about sums it up for me..
you took the words out of my mouth. I wonder if the OP is still reading the replies? It isn't the smugness of meat eaters but the smugness of vegans and vegetarians that bother many of us. OP, you mention meat eating as being so bad and we, who enjoy meat and dairy products as being brain washed, has it dawned on you this could work both ways. While vegans and vegetarians are pushing their views down our throats, they are assuring themselves they are right and we should live by what they say. Let's just say, I am 80, eat meat, cheese, and other dairy products and do not have any serious illnesses. Dad and mom in law live to be way into their 90s, heavy meat eaters, didn't die of heart disease and didn't have diabetes. So please, for those who do not eat meat, continue which is a good choice probably, but please don't judge us or lecture us.
 
Old 08-20-2017, 06:16 AM
 
Location: Bella Vista, Ark
77,772 posts, read 104,140,979 times
Reputation: 49244
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoLikeable View Post
Made my mom watch " What the health". The movie talks about the dangers of eating animal products. Short term and long. Heart disease, diabetes, cancer, osteoporosis. even with out the health issues the toll on the earth is unimaginable. I like this movie because it breaks it down with the facts, doctors, nutritionist and people who were actually going through these diseases. I work at a grocery store and I see people spend $100 or more on junk food and call it " necessity". And sometimes Ill ask " Where are the fruits and vegetables?" or " Wheres the real food?, this stuffs bad for you!". Deep down they know its bad but people do it ANYWAY! one lady even replied " Well.. I'm gonna die someday" as if that justifies living on junk 24 hours a day. The truth is people want to be lied to. They don't want someone telling them that they're favorite food could lead to an untimely death. After my mom saw the documentary she buys a fryer ( to fry foods) a week later. And its just proof that most are so brainwashed by the media so much that even when the truth is revealed they won't accept it. How can we change the world if the world doesn't want to be changed?
did she buy a deep fat fryer or an air fryer? They are 2 very different things.
I see you posted that it isn't a personal choice if it kills you: of course it is. Driving over the speed limit, even a mile can kill you as well. Maybe we should all stop driving.

BTW: I see you haven't posted here for a week now.
 
Old 08-20-2017, 04:05 PM
 
Location: Southern California
29,267 posts, read 16,565,121 times
Reputation: 18901
I go for the grass fed meats and wild fish. I don't HAVE vegans or vegetarians,,,that's such a harsh description, Hate...

I do feel a concern that many have gone to the soy crazy world and their thyroids are taking it's toll. My grandgirl, peer pressures in college I'm sure, has become that vegan person...and I will send her a note say: Hope you know of the soy culprit and our thyroids"....Just planting seeds as she can be doing damage. I went thru the soymilk stuff for a while and falling over with fatigue and when chiro muscle tested with soy, he said "get off that stuff".....I did and never touch it if I can help it.

I just got an email from an MD who has opened up a holistic practice in Palm Springs and he did a video and says the 3 Superfoods to AVOID are:

Soy (processed)
Wheat Grass
Goji Berries

I feel much stronger eating some animal protein...have reduced consumption a lot in recent years.

I'm not getting into any morale issues with killing and eating animals. Man has been doing this for centuries.

I have gone to Coconut Oil and some say it's a fad but if it is it's a good one and here to stay.
 
Old 08-21-2017, 05:57 AM
 
Location: Minnesota
1,199 posts, read 644,996 times
Reputation: 3004
I am currently a lacto ovo vegetarian, but for many years was a strict vegan and animal rights activist. I used to leaflet high schools and colleges, even tabled a private college on my own, worked with local medical establishments to push for vegan menu options. I worked and worked to convert family members and friends to vegan, and was horrible to them when they failed or didn't stay vegan long. I got to the point of pushing others away, avoiding this company or that food because it came from a place of "cruelty". I avoided palm oil (which is in many food and nonfood products and involves a great deal of cruelty in the making), soy, products made from nonvegan companies, you name it. My diet and lifestyle were very restrictive. I grew some of my own food, made my own shampoo and soap. I went to rallies for animal causes.

Somewhere along the line I began to feel my own frustrations in the animal rights group. I could never be vegan enough because I take medications that are not 100% vegan (I've been on thyroid meds for 29 years which are not a choice; take a hormone patch due to loss of ovaries many years ago at a young age, also not a choice if I want to function). My husband of 19 years is an omni and was the entire time I was vegan, so living with a nonvegan excluded me from the vegan purity club (go to any animal rights/radical vegan forum and find all kinds of "Eew" threads towards those living with omnis). I began to see how awful and judgmental other vegans could be, and eventually I opened my eyes and saw that I was the exact same way, and I hated myself. I had never intended for my veganism to be like that. When I started it was about love for all creatures, peace, compassion. Somewhere along the line it turned to frustration, judgment, never being able to live fully up to an ideal. It became a religion I ate slept and breathed daily, and nothing else mattered. The more people I could convince and convert, the better the vegan I was. I began to really search inside myself and think about this ideal.

To me, a world that is truly vegan means no more pets/animal companions, at least not ones who need meat to survive, such as cats. Pet ownership means we are exploiting animals on some level, like it or not. It means the medical establishment would have to radically change so that many many current medications would be obsolete, many life saving procedures would have to go by the wayside because they might involve the use of animal parts at some point were tested on animals. It would mean drastically reducing human population if we are going to share our world with all other species and no hunting allowed. It would mean human sterilization (and I can see it becoming mandatory by some vegan standards). We'd have to stop building structures and towns which take away from wild animal populations and hurt wildlife. In some areas of the world, people would have to leave them because in order to inhabit some areas, there has to be some form of meat eating as vegetation is just not as abundant.

I just don't see the world ever being 100% vegan, and there are too many people unwilling or unable to become vegan. I see a better focus on smaller scale farming, pasture raised and humanely treated livestock (I have visited a few smaller local farms lately and this is possible, though yes by definition the animals are "exploited" for humans), hunting for survival as opposed to sport. Less animal based fast food. Eating more plants and less meat, but not expecting a radical shift to all vegan all the time. Making healthy food more accessible to all.

I also understand that meat eating and hunting have been a part of human nature since the beginning of time. Humans are omnivores. Yes, we can live without meat, but a vegan world is a very radical shift from the natural world on so many levels, and it does involve denying one's nature on some level. Cruelty free is nearly impossible. Every choice we make involves the death or harm of an animal somewhere.

I didn't have a ton of health issues in my 6.5 years of being vegan. I already had severe osteoporosis before I went vegan, but in the years of having DEXA scans as an omni, my bone density stayed close to the same. Four years into being vegan and having a DEXA scan, it took a drastic dive (-3.0 for years as an omni, -3.8 as a vegan), despite daily consumption of low oxalate leafy greens, plant milks, almonds, chia seeds, black strap molasses, exercise, etc My iron was still normal but trending towards low normal. But the hardest issue was a long standing eating disorder/anorexia that i battled for many years (as an omni and vegan). Though my diet as a vegan was varied and abundant in some regards (and I also achieved a normal weight range as a vegan in recovery), it was still restrictive, there were many rules, and the social aspects of eating out or around others presented challenges as a person with an eating disorder. I had to let go of being vegan to take the next step in fighting my eating disorder and letting go of rules and restrictions.

Most of my vegan friends have been nice about it, accepting me and my move to lacto ovo vegetarian. But I did have to shut myself off a lot of vegan online groups and friends that were less than "nice". I still make a great effort to source my eggs and dairy locally and have visited the farms where most of it comes from. I am not going to lie that all my food comes from a happy place, especially when eating out where I have less choice in where the food is sourced. I'm trying to understand that avoiding cruelty is impossible, and nature is not this idealic magical place where everything lives peacefully and happily all the time. Humans have a symbiotic relationship with animal and plants around them. We are not separate from that. Right now I am reading a few books about the history of milk and animal farming, both of which go back a long long way. I'm trying to find objective sources and not propaganda. So I can learn about all sides of these issues.

I'm a much happier and less judgmental person than I was before. I also find myself cringing at some vegan propaganda that I might have cheered just a few years ago. I don't consider myself "anti vegan" now, but I can definitely see why others would be.
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