Vegan/Vegetarian debate_______ What do you think? (dinner, corn, spagetti)

[Davachka]

Wasteful Use Of Resources Also Contributes To Hunger And Poverty

As seen in the above statistics, a large amount of grain is used to feed livestock, while people go hungry. Of course, meat and other products from livestock are important. However, as we shall see with the example of beef, the amount of consumption of meat such as beef and its purpose (as seen in convenience such as fast foods) has raised much criticism because of the costly inputs, which could be largely used to help feed hungry people while reducing meat consumption to healthier levels.

[b]eef is terribly inefficient as a source of food. By the time a feedlot steer in the United States is ready for slaughter, it has consumed 2,700 pounds of grain and weighs approximately 1,050 pounds; 157 million metric tons of cereal and vegetable protein is used to produce 28 metric tons of animal protein. ... [b]eef in the quantities that Americans consume it is unhealthy, being linked to cardiovascular disease, colon cancer, breast cancer, and osteoporosis. Yet Americans are among the highest meat consumers in the world and the highest consumers of beef.

— Richard Robbins, Global Problems and the Culture of Capitalism, (Allyn and Bacon, 1999) p.221
We can see numerous issues here, for example:

If we add these input costs, together with additional costs such as the costs of the health issues and environmental degradation and so on, we see that many resources are expended for this consumption, while at the same time, many around the world go hungry.

Beef - Global Issues

[Davachka]

Educate yourselves.

Beef - Global Issues

[TexasHorseLady]

faina00, you are assuming that those who disagree with you haven't educated themselves or of course they would think as you do. I am one of those annoying people who researches the heck out of absolutely everything (just ask my family - it drives them nuts!)

In doing such research, I try to find sources on all sides of an issue that are as unbiased as possible - and I NEVER use blogs as a primary resource because they are, by their very nature, self-selecting to the bias of the blogger in question, be it an individual or an association with its own agenda. I also try to look harder at the bias and reliability of sources that feed my own biases because those are the ones that I know that I, like all humans, am most likely to give a pass to on what they say, so I go overboard the other way.

If you look at "About This Site" on the site you linked to for us to educate ourselves, it is a blog, and it contains over 500 articles that the blogger acknowledges he wrote most of himself. Yes, he gives links, and that makes the site useful, but it's not a primary source and the links are selected with his pre-existing bias in mind.

By the way, you haven't responded to my previous post - how is what you said not arguing with others about their personal choice, and how is it not antagonistic?

[my54ford]

OHHH PLEASE!!! you greenys eat the grass, that leaves more meat for me.!!!!! In fact I think I'll go and hit a rabbit in the head with a hammer, rip it's guts out and turn him into hassenpeffer for tonite supper!!!!!!

[Capt. Cave Man]

Moderators, I tried. Faina, your a radical. I thought I tried to keep this light, guess I was wrong.

"Educate yourselves" That was the line.

[SIZE=3]Contrary to vegan-based reviews or commentaries, people following a strict vegetarian diet are not
[/SIZE][SIZE=3]healthier than their omnivorous counterparts. In fact, [/SIZE][SIZE=3]on average[/SIZE][SIZE=3], they suffer from as many, or more
[/SIZE][SIZE=3]medical complaints as compared to non-vegetarian individuals, who include meat or eggs in their diet.
[/SIZE][SIZE=3][/SIZE][SIZE=3]There is absolutely no question that the [/SIZE][SIZE=3]average[/SIZE][SIZE=3] person does best health-wise by consuming a [/SIZE][SIZE=3]mixed
[/SIZE][SIZE=3]diet that is as fresh, and hopefully as unprocessed as possible. Beyond that, an individual assessment
[/SIZE][SIZE=3]is required to provide the necessary information to help make a decision of whether one's diet should
[/SIZE][SIZE=3]be adjusted with greater emphasis toward 1) specific food groups, 2) a change in the percentage of
[/SIZE][SIZE=3]the carb, protein or fat content of a meal, or 3) toward a more [/SIZE][SIZE=3]vegetarian[/SIZE][SIZE=3] or [/SIZE][SIZE=3]non-vegetarian[/SIZE][SIZE=3] diet, -
[/SIZE][SIZE=3]for a more [/SIZE][SIZE=3]optimal[/SIZE][SIZE=3] approach to health. Mineral ratios (high potassium / low sodium, high calcium / low
[/SIZE][SIZE=3]phosphorus...) of certain foods or beverages also deserve some attention as they can have a favorable
[/SIZE][SIZE=3]or unfavorable effect on someone's health problems.
[/SIZE][SIZE=3][/SIZE][SIZE=3]Kidney and liver chemistry are the chief resources to base the decision on of whether a patient would
[/SIZE][SIZE=3]benefit more from an omnivorous, or vegetarian lifestyle. Individuals who predominately exhibit lower
[/SIZE][SIZE=3]levels of protein, phosphorus, sodium, iron and/or manganese, and higher levels of potassium and/or
[/SIZE][SIZE=3]zinc are certainly candidates for diets with a greater emphasis on meat, while those with a tendency for
[/SIZE][SIZE=3]higher levels of the above (protein, phosphorus, sodium, iron and manganese), and lower levels of zinc
and potassium are better candidates to adopt vegetarianism, and they should reduce or avoid animal-
[/SIZE][SIZE=3]based food sources as much as possible.
[/SIZE][SIZE=3][/SIZE][SIZE=3]With some medical problems (i.e. renal failure), a vegetarian-based diet becomes almost mandatory,
[/SIZE][SIZE=3]but even then certain types of vegetables, i.e. those that are oxalic acid-rich, would have to be avoided.
[/SIZE][SIZE=3]On the other hand, patients exhibiting very high levels of cellular potassium and/or zinc, and as such are
at a greater risk for developing chronic genitourinary conditions, including ovarian / testicular cancer,
[/SIZE][SIZE=3]should avoid strict vegan-types of diets that tend to promote much higher cellular levels of both of these
elements. (see also Acu-Cell Nutrition "Zinc & Potassium[/SIZE][SIZE=3]").
[/SIZE][SIZE=3][/SIZE][SIZE=3]There are only animal, but no vegetarian sources of Vitamin B12, which is why herbivores (i.e. rabbits)
[/SIZE][SIZE=3]meet their Vitamin B12 requirements by eating plants that are infested with insects, or by eating their
own feces, while in ruminants (sheep, cows), the microbes fermenting and digesting plant material in the
[/SIZE][SIZE=3]rumen (the first stomach) incorporate cobalt into Vit B12, which is subsequently absorbed and utilized.
[/SIZE][SIZE=3](see also Acu-Cell Nutrition "Nickel & Cobalt[/SIZE][SIZE=3]").
[/SIZE][SIZE=3][/SIZE][SIZE=3]Vitamin B12 liver stores in adults may last for several years before becoming depleted as a result of
[/SIZE][SIZE=3]switching to a strict vegan or vegetarian diet, however Vitamin B12 deficiency in vegetarian children is
[/SIZE][SIZE=3]much more serious since symptoms do not always become obvious or acute until some damage has
[/SIZE][SIZE=3]resulted. So while it is recommended to supplement extra amounts of Vitamin B12 with vegetarian
[/SIZE][SIZE=3]adults, it is mandatory with vegetarian children!
[/SIZE][SIZE=3]Because of improved sanitation, this is much more important in Western societies, since in lesser
developed parts of the world, insect or feces-contaminated fruits or vegetables have generally been
[/SIZE][SIZE=3]sources of Vitamin B12 for those growing up in a predominantly vegetarian environment or culture.
[/SIZE][SIZE=3][/SIZE][SIZE=3]It may also be advisable to supplement a very small amount (DRI/RDA) of the active form of Vitamin B6
(pyridoxal-5-phosphate), since vegetarian sources of Vit B6 only supply the inactive form (pyridoxine),
which will have to be converted to the active form by the liver, however the efficiency of the liver to do so
may be compromised with certain types of liver diseases. Ideally, when supplementing Vitamin B6 as
[/SIZE][SIZE=3]pyridoxine, a brand should be purchased that automatically supplies a small percentage of Vitamin B6
[/SIZE][SIZE=3]as pyridoxal-5-phosphate, or P5P. Both, Vitamin B12 and Vitamin B6 (along with folic acid and others)
are also able to lower homocysteine levels which tend to be on the high side with many vegetarians, so
these vitamins will have a favorably affect on a vegetarian's cardiovascular system also. (see also Acu-
[/SIZE][SIZE=3]Cell Nutrition "B-Complex Vitamins[/SIZE][SIZE=3]").
[/SIZE][SIZE=3][/SIZE][SIZE=3]The decision to supplement additional iron (particularly with vegetarian women), or protein may have
[/SIZE][SIZE=3]to be made based on actual lab tests, whereby low protein and/or iron frequently - but not always - may
also suggest low sodium levels. Using normal amounts of table salt generally resolves that situation in
the average individual, however in low aldosterone types, where using salt alone won't bring up sodium
[/SIZE][SIZE=3]levels, supplementing choline or even licorice may have to be considered.
[/SIZE][SIZE=3]When iron levels test below normal, then manganese supplementation is frequently indicated as well,
[/SIZE][SIZE=3]being the associated mineral of iron, which may help with low blood sugar / hypoglycemic symptoms,
[/SIZE][SIZE=3]or low estrogenic-types of PMS. This tends to develop when high potassium intake - being more
[/SIZE][SIZE=3]prevalent with vegetarianism - gradually depletes manganese levels in the body.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3][/SIZE][SIZE=3]No, faina, I'm not an uneducated adult. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=3]You are a radical, faina, and there really is no "fun" in debating with such type.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=3]I'm done, and so is my steak AND veggies. [/SIZE]

[eevee]

- grain used to feed cattle may not be suitable for human consumption (otherwise, people could argue that the grains wasted to feed birds and rabbits could be used to feed humans)

-lands used to grow grain for cattle consumption may not be suitable for other foods

-your major beef (pun intended) seems to be w/ the beef industry. the atrocities that go on in some of these factories is well known, among both vegetarians and meat eaters. lots of meat eaters (including me) go out of their way to buy free range/grass fed meat, even meat from animals fed organic foods.

I see nothing wrong w/ eating meat, so long as the animal was raised/killed/harvested humanely. w/ the obvious exception of cannibalism and the eating of highly endangered species, I see no difference between cow, pig, chicken, dog, cat, rabbit, horse, whatever. I've never tried most of the meats I've just listed, but I have no issues over eating a dog just b/c I had a dog (again, so long as the dog was humanely raised/killed). humans are not, by design, herbivores. humans are not, by design, carnivores. humans are omnivores. we can derive nutrients from both plants and meat. in moderation, there is nothing wrong w/ eating meat, anymore than there's eating grains. lots of vegans suffer from malnutrition and must rely on vitamins/supplements, so the idea that a vegan diet is the healthiest isn't always true.

If you choose to be a vegan, that's awesome for you. I have absolutely no disrespect for vegans and vegetarians. however, I DESPISE vegans and vegetarians that feel it's ok to bash me for my dietary choices and to blame this and that (murder, ozone depletion, the destruction of the earth, etc) solely on what I eat for dinner.

[Timm]

Originally Posted by Capt. Cave Man

I believe everyone should live as they think is "fit/right", and not push their beliefs on others who live differently.

This.

Originally Posted by eevee

If you choose to be a vegan, that's awesome for you. I have absolutely no disrespect for vegans and vegetarians. however, I DESPISE vegans and vegetarians that feel it's ok to bash me for my dietary choices and to blame this and that (murder, ozone depletion, the destruction of the earth, etc) solely on what I eat for dinner.

And this.

I don't really care what other people choose to eat. But it sure seems to me that vegans/vegetarians (certainly not all of them, just a high percentage of the ones I've come across) have a tendency to believe they are morally superior to those who eat meat and don't think twice about lecturing others on how they "should" eat. It's downright insufferable. I would find the world a whole lot more pleasant of a place if people would just live and let live.

[charolastra00]

I just have a rule that if I can't kill it myself, I won't eat it. So while I don't eat much meat (mostly because of environmental concerns), I only eat fish, chicken, and turkey. I don't think I could take out a cow. :P

I do wish Americans ate more insects, though. Due to my heath issues, I need lots of protein to feel on top of things and it would be nice to be able to make a nice cricket taco. Luckily I'll be studying in Southern Mexico next fall and I'll have as many of those little protein filled critters as my heart desires! And there's nothing cruel about squashing a bug, is there? Most of my vegan friends even throw shoes at spiders in their rooms. I think that hurts their feelings.

[tomcat6]

I have been vegetarian for about a year and a half now and I havn't really noticed any changes in my physical strength, ect. I do however feel better morally. I just feel bad eating animals. I don't push my beliefs on others and if they eat organic free-range meat, then I'm fine with that. I just can't stand the factory farming though.

[Fat Freddy]

I hate it when people become vegetarians.

It makes the price of tofu go up and makes the lines longer at the Whole Foods store.

Luckily, it's only a passing fad for most of them and they soon go back to eating flesh.

But, I have noticed that over the years, the quality of tofu has gone down and the price has risen. That holds true for soy bean products in general and I attribute that directly to the "popularization" of vegetarianism.

Vegetables are too good for the common people. Let them eat animal carcass.