Vegan/Vegetarian debate_______ What do you think? (taste, animal, worse)

[Capt. Cave Man]

Tomcat, I want this light to learn and no bashing. I really don't care what people eat, to each their own. But I do want to know why you don't like "factory farming" and how you define it. Just curious is all.

I guess I need to explain why I'm curious; I may be considered a "factory farm", but then again I may not be. Just wondering if I am considered such.

I guess my point in this is that what you eat is fine by me, if your happy its great. What I don't like is the bashing of the farmer, and it may be valid.....I don't know. I want to know what others think of someone who raises large amounts of beef, pork, corn, and wheat.

Just curious is all. I'm out here on the edge of the earth and don't know what people think in larger cities of 300K+.

Thanks

[TexasHorseLady]

To me (and I'm a confirmed omnivore), factory farming is situations where animals are raised as if in factory - overcrowded feedlots, overgrazing (if grazing at all), antibiotics made necessary by the overcrowded conditions, that kind of thing.

Capitol Land & Livestock is right up the road from me, and I hear all the time from people who aren't around here about what terrible lives the cattle that pass through those places have. This while I'm looking out my window across the road at just one of their pastures where the cattle are grazing with plenty of room on gorgeous pastures, where they are worked with cattle, not machines, in keeping with their natural tendencies (I do it on foot, but you can guide cattle simply by where you place yourself, without chasing them - walking is better than running as running makes them lose weight and toughen up, no matter what the cowboy movies say), living much as they would if given their natural druthers, except that someone is taking care of the pasture and moving them to fresh green pasture when the one they're on gets too grazed and such. This is NOT factory farming.
Size isn't the real criteria, I don't think, but HOW the animals are raised.

[Maine Writer]

Originally Posted by Timm

This.


And this.

I don't really care what other people choose to eat. But it sure seems to me that vegans/vegetarians (certainly not all of them, just a high percentage of the ones I've come across) have a tendency to believe they are morally superior to those who eat meat and don't think twice about lecturing others on how they "should" eat. It's downright insufferable. I would find the world a whole lot more pleasant of a place if people would just live and let live.

I'm a farmer, raise poultry (birds are meat, don't fool yourself into thinking it's not) and write a blog. I can see what people are searching for when they use a search engine to find my blog. "why vegetarians are better." So disappointing to read my opinion of why they're no better than anyone else, I suppose. "vegetarian fed chickens." Gimme a break. If you're feeding your chickens a vegetarian diet you're denying them the natural lifestyle and diet they are supposed to have. They're omnivores. Don't think so? Toss a mouse or a frog into the middle of a flock and see what happens naturally.

Unless tofu and other soybean products are organic they're probably genetically modified. I don't understand why anyone makes a conscious choice to eat that. Vegetables can easily use the same amount of fossil fuels as meat animals and poultry.

Think all cattle are raised on commercial feed? Think again. We eat 100% grass fed pork, beef and lamb raised by a farming friend. They've never seen dried corn or sweet feed. They aren't taking up any more land than the pasture they're born and raised on. Before looking down on meat eaters it's important to see the whole picture, not just the narrow one the media portrays. First hand knowledge is invaluable, especially compared to media hype.

I have absolutely no problem with vegetarians. My oldest daughter is one. I do dislike being looked down on by people who do nothing more for their food supply than run into a grocery store. They lack first hand knowledge. It could be a heck of a lot worse than well raised meat and they wouldn't know.

[tkdmom]

Capt. Cave Man, I respect your opinion, and I'm not judging you or anyone for what they eat. And I certainly know not about how you conduct your business. But, how would you know what suffering an animal feels, have you ever been slaughtered ? It's kind of a blanket statement to say that, isn't it !?!? Not bashing you, just friendly debate.

Personally, I turned away from flesh ten plus yrs ago. And I would NEVER go back. That's just me.

I don't have all the answers. I just do what I know is right in my heart, so that I don't ever have to live with regret.

Yes, you are probably correct in saying that all industries are greedy.
Which is why we have, Govt. and housing problems, cruelty and suffering to children, the homeless, animals, etc.

Also, I have never pushed my beliefs on anyone, I was simply saying that the industry is BAD. Here is some proof.

Meat plant concerns raised for years - USATODAY.com

There's more I want to say but I gotta run, my tofu and veggies need cooking

Originally Posted by Capt. Cave Man

tkdmom - what you see on tv is NOT the norm. I agree that the meat industry is greedy, but then again what industry isn't? I farm and raise livestock both on a large and small scale. There is no cruelty or suffering. They always have food, water and shelter. I could say the same about big cities and what they do to the homeless, cruelty and suffering happens, but not as much as what we see on tv.
I guess my point is that you can't lay a "blanket" statement like that on an industry. Not a bash, just wanted to say my side, thats all.

As far as humans living longer and needing life to sustain our life, it's true. But we also raise more "life"(plants and animals) and the balance is seen in the market prices. We protect what is scarce, and eat what is abundant.

I believe everyone should live as they think is "fit/right", and not push their beliefs on others who live differently.

[TexasHorseLady]

"vegetarian fed chickens." Gimme a break. If you're feeding your chickens a vegetarian diet you're denying them the natural lifestyle and diet they are supposed to have. They're omnivores. Don't think so? Toss a mouse or a frog into the middle of a flock and see what happens naturally.

I have a running joke with the guys at the meat department at Whole Foods that "vegetarian free range chicken" is so much more expensive because they have to pay people to follow the free range chickens around taking the bugs and occasional mice and such out of their beaks before they get a chance to swallow them. Which is to say, there is no such thing as a vegetarian free range chicken. Sheesh. That's almost as bad as the people who think that it's a good thing and not abuse to make their cats or dogs (designed to be carnivores) into vegetarians.

Then there's the little matter of being in competition with the herbivores (wildlife) for the land they need to grow their food. If we all become vegetarian, we're going to need all of that land to grow our own vegetables, which means we'll be forcing them off of their range as much or even more than we do now with our housing.

Interestingly, my cows can survive happily on soil here that won't grow vegetables, but will grow grass (we have a combination of Austin Chalk and Houston Black - the latter grows vegetables wonderfully, the former, not so much).

[Capt. Cave Man]

Great tkdmom, glad we won't make each other mad. Thank YOU! I'm married w/kids so I do know what it means to be slaughtered! Of course it is a joke.

I don't know what it is like to be slaughtered, but I do know how it is done. The animal is put down extremely quick, I've been there and done that. Many, on my farm, are done to "put them out of their misery", not that that statement helps any, but it makes me feel better. (death due to broken leg, and obvious pain) Just some info, and my farm is no different than most.

You are doing what is right in your heart, God bless you and I tip my hat. I am happy for you, we are different, but I totally respect that and I am happy for you. I am happy also, I have no regret(as far as food goes, other things....well ), and I eat meat.

I know you couldn't finish, but USA Today is not the best source. Yes, there are bad people in the industry, ALL industries. If I were to eliminate one industry due to their wrong doings, I would be riding a bike, and not drive'n a pickup. Now that is a whole new can of worms/spagetti.

I enjoyed this tkdmom, thank you. I hope you will make me think more.

I must appologize, I am "fighting"(for lack of a better term) for eating meat, be it beef, pork, chicken, or fish.....or worms. I'm not pushing meat on you, nor do I really care what you eat as long as you are happy. Just standing up for my "profession" so to speak.

I also must say that I have a cousin that is a vegetarian. He is very radical and won't speak to many of us who raise livestock(even my grandfather). I'll admit that he has made me angry at the vegetarians as a whole, but I also know that it is wrong to "ban" a group for their beliefs by listening to one individual. If that were the case I'd dislike all blacks, whites, mexicans, italians, chinese, japanese,.........well the whole world for that matter. I think you get my point.

Better go, calves are ball'n.....their hungry.......yes not for pork but for veggies.

[TexasHorseLady]

Better go, calves are ball'n.....their hungry.......yes not for pork but for veggies.

I hear you! Just got in from getting a couple of the cows back from the neighbor's ("But he's such a PRETTY bull, Mom!") along with the little bull calf of one of them. He was so funny - everyone was having their dinner, and I walked away swinging the bucket and he gave off eating to run after me and my bucket just in case I had something better in there.

[BlueWillowPlate]

I could happily survive without red meat, and I do not eat a lot of it.
But for me personally, and I realize I am lucky in this--eating is not about surviving, it is about enjoyment. There is no way that I would be interested in ever becoming a vegan (no eggs or dairy.) The thought of life without Humboldt Fog cheese does not appeal at all.

I would never paint the entire beef production industry all with the same brush of corruption, any more than I would point my finger at all chicken or hog farmers as being without conscience.

Do I think some hogs have better lives than others? You bet. Do I like the idea of sustainable agriculture? Yup. Is it crazy that some farmers are paid not to farm (farm subsidy system)?
Yes--but that's probably another thread.

I very much appreciate the people who grow the food I eat. I understand that the chicken I enjoy used to be a cute little fuzzy chick. I know I could kill my food if I had to do it. I don't eat veal, but do enjoy lamb.
My favorite protein is fish, which does not have quite the same cuteness factor as a calf.

[tkdmom]

Ever read Animal Farm by George Orwell...Two legs bad...four legs good !

[tomcat6]

I'm not sure if its the right definition, to call this factory farming, but what I mean is keeping chickens in small cages, and cows in pens all day where they can't move, ect. I agree with free range farming, where the animals are outside in the fresh air.