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I don't get it, so if someone votes against gay marriage doesn't that mean that they don't approve of you know....gay couples and think of them as fundamentally different than straight couples?
There is no analogy here, approximately 60% of Oxnard voted against Prop 8, what are the chances you're going to avoid 60% of the city? On the other hand, racists, gangs, make up a small percent of the city.
Now, is this 60% going to verbally abuse, commit a hate crime, etc against someone that that is gay? No, but the same can be said of racists in Simi Valley. But its hard to see how someone can vote for Prop 8 while still treating someone gay just like they would everyone else.
This is what I am trying to imply....even if you run into those 60%, it doesn't mean diddly squat....
It's quite simple to treat someone with respect and dignity..that's EASY to do and it can be done genuinely.
Whether someone approves of something or not is a different question, you might want to talk to 60% of Oxnard and find out what their thoughts are.
I still don't think the way people vote is indicative of how they will treat someone. A couple years ago, my neighbors wanted to build a dog park here where dogs could run wild off their leashes....Umm...I'm against that and had that ever made it to the ballots, I would have said HELL NO...Does that mean I am going to be rude towards Fido's owners...nope...that would be absurd.
Again, no analogy, what you're against is having the dog park in your neighborhood so why would you be hostile to individuals with dogs?! On the other hand a vote for Prop 8 is a vote against gay marriage, you are directly voting against the individuals....
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyKLO
The fact of life is not everyone will agree with everything you are doing but truthfully, do you really care? I would hope not.
So, if California passed say Prop 8A that defined marriage as between a white man and woman you wouldn't really care? And you'd be fine living in a city where most people voted for it?
Its amazing that you think that gays shouldn't care when their civil rights are being violated....
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyKLO
Whether someone approves of something or not is a different question, you might want to talk to 60% of Oxnard and find out what their thoughts are.
Why would someone want to live in a community where most people disapprove with the way they are at a fundamental level? I'll pass on talking to the 60% of Oxnard ....
Again, no analogy, what you're against is having the dog park in your neighborhood so why would you be hostile to individuals with dogs?! On the other hand a vote for Prop 8 is a vote against gay marriage, you are directly voting against the individuals....
So, if California passed say Prop 8A that defined marriage as between a white man and woman you wouldn't really care? And you'd be fine living in a city where most people voted for it?
Its amazing that you think that gays shouldn't care when their civil rights are being violated....
Why would someone want to live in a community where most people disapproved with the way they are at a fundamental level? I'll pass on talking to the 60% of Oxnard ....
We are talking about apples and oranges here.....I am saying just because you (not you...anyone for this matter) live in a city where people may have voted contrary to your belief system does not imply that people will be hostile. If the person voted based off religious convictions, are you to assume they hate a person's lifestyle..this discussion is more complicated and is probably better discussed face to face since words on a computer screen don't always imply what my real meaning is. I suggest you make an appearance at the VC meetup in the September/October timeframe so we can further dialogue on this topic and many other topics discussed on this forum.
I live in a world where there are so many issues of injustices to all types of people whether they are economic-based, gender, racist, sexual-orientation, location, etc.. My advice to someone is to keep fighting the legal system and raising awareness of whatever your cause may be.
Is this world perfect...no...we still have a long way to go in a lot of areas. This is probably one reason why people get involved in politics and efforts throughout their community to raise awareness.
I am saying just because you (not you...anyone for this matter) live in a city where people may have voted contrary to your belief system does not imply that people will be hostile.
Right, you're saying that and I would agree, yet the OP didn't ask about hostility they asked about acceptance. So then, how can someone both vote for Prop 8 and accept someone who is gay?
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyKLO
If the person voted based off religious convictions...
The basis of their vote is irrelevant, a vote for Prop 8 is a vote against homosexuality. How can you vote for Prop 8 yet be perfectly accepting of homosexuality? Homosexuality is defined by same sex unions, yet this is precisely what is attacked by Prop 8.
In terms of "fighting the legal system", the person was asking about gay acceptance in Ventura County..... I will ask you again, would you want to live in a community where the majority of people think that marriage should be between two white people? Furthermore, would you consider people that hold this belief accepting of your race?
Right, you're saying that and I would agree, yet the OP didn't ask about hostility they asked about acceptance. So then, how can someone both vote for Prop 8 and accept someone who is gay?
The basis of their vote is irrelevant, a vote for Prop 8 is a vote against homosexuality. How can you vote for Prop 8 yet be perfectly accepting of homosexuality? Homosexuality is defined by same sex unions, yet this is precisely what is attacked by Prop 8.
In terms of "fighting the legal system", the person was asking about gay acceptance in Ventura County..... I will ask you again, would you want to live in a community where the majority of people think that marriage should be between two white people? Furthermore, would you consider people that hold this belief accepting of your race?
Ok, perhaps you are right...acceptance means something totally different...perhaps the word tolerance should be used as well. I have a friend who would never accept my faith/religion however, we are good friends and it has not been an issue..perhaps she "tolerates" me?? lol...
Maybe the thread should have been titled tolerance...which is probably what I am saying when I mentioned there probably won't be any hostility towards the OP. You cannot force people to accept anything because everyone is an individual. There are plenty of things in this world I don't accept but tolerate.
No need for me to answer the question regarding living in a community for whites only marriage....I have to think back to my parents days who lived in the deep south through the times when they could not drink from certain water fountains, denied entry into certain schools, etc...I know for one they were not accepted but the courts changed that....perhaps during their time, it was a forced tolerance. Regarding the community...my grandmother STILL lives in the same community where she was not accepted some 40-60 years ago......hence the reason people got involved in the civil rights movement. This is why I said earlier that things happen and folks get involved.
Anyway, goodnight..bootcamp has done me in for the evening and my bed is seducing me right now....
OP here. Wow! I never thought my post would generate this type of heated discussion! Yikes, I hope we are all still cyber-friends after this discussion! Maybe some explanation is in order...
Gotta remember, I am located in Pennsylvania, and I post in the wee hours of the morning. Think 3 a.m. or thereabouts. I don't remember when I posted the original post. I am not writing a college paper, so if I used acceptance rather than tolerate, cut me some slack. The posts here do raise some very interesting issues, and I am thankful for that. See, communication really does help. LadyKLO, I gotta thank you for your input. And thank you too, User_Id. In fact, thank you everybody!
I have started to haunt the message boards here on CD because my partner and I contemplate relocating to CA. Originally, it was to be Palm Springs. Many folks from our region have moved there. I wanted to explore different areas of CA a bit more before deciding on this region, however.
I guess tolerate might have been a better choice of words. I dunno. Maybe put up with me? Ignore me? Who knows? When I think of some of the nonsense/hatred, and yes, even violence at times I put up with, and all I am is a happy ***** who likes to grow plants (I am excellent at it) and cook (I ace this, too. Thank an Italian grandmother for both those skills), and do nice things for my fellow humans (and animals) here on planet Earth. Yes, it concerns me that 60% of a region would vote a certain way. Yet, I agree with LadyKLO, I don't think those 60% would attack me on sight or discriminate...would they? Hope I'm right there! I don't care if you don't like me, just don't be so against me, ya know? Ya don't have to accept the fact that I am married (in my heart. This is PA) to another man, just don't attack me or discriminate.
Homosexuality is not a choice, but homophobia sure is.
Another thing, I went to a popular free site (CL) just to see how many ads there were in the Gay section. The large number of personal ads indicates to me there is a rather large (although probably closeted) Gay population in Ventura county.
OP here. Wow! I never thought my post would generate this type of heated discussion! Yikes, I hope we are all still cyber-friends after this discussion! Maybe some explanation is in order...
Gotta remember, I am located in Pennsylvania, and I post in the wee hours of the morning. Think 3 a.m. or thereabouts. I don't remember when I posted the original post. I am not writing a college paper, so if I used acceptance rather than tolerate, cut me some slack. The posts here do raise some very interesting issues, and I am thankful for that. See, communication really does help. LadyKLO, I gotta thank you for your input. And thank you too, User_Id. In fact, thank you everybody!
I have started to haunt the message boards here on CD because my partner and I contemplate relocating to CA. Originally, it was to be Palm Springs. Many folks from our region have moved there. I wanted to explore different areas of CA a bit more before deciding on this region, however.
I guess tolerate might have been a better choice of words. I dunno. Maybe put up with me? Ignore me? Who knows? When I think of some of the nonsense/hatred, and yes, even violence at times I put up with, and all I am is a happy ***** who likes to grow plants (I am excellent at it) and cook (I ace this, too. Thank an Italian grandmother for both those skills), and do nice things for my fellow humans (and animals) here on planet Earth. Yes, it concerns me that 60% of a region would vote a certain way. Yet, I agree with LadyKLO, I don't think those 60% would attack me on sight or discriminate...would they? Hope I'm right there! I don't care if you don't like me, just don't be so against me, ya know? Ya don't have to accept the fact that I am married (in my heart. This is PA) to another man, just don't attack me or discriminate.
Homosexuality is not a choice, but homophobia sure is.
Another thing, I went to a popular free site (CL) just to see how many ads there were in the Gay section. The large number of personal ads indicates to me there is a rather large (although probably closeted) Gay population in Ventura county.
Awesome post...we are not really heated here...a lot of things are really hard to convey on a website because they can be taken out of context.
Whatever you decide, I have to believe you will be ok! Speaking of plants...one of my neighbors is gay and he has the best plants on this street! He is awesome at taking care of his plants and it really shows! Have an awesome day!
No one has proved intolerance to what I have said. No one has proved that anyone has been hurt by Prop 8. All that has been shown is that some are upset about the definition of marriage. All that Prop 8 says is that marriage is between a man and a woman. That is all. No one is damaged by that. No one is being told that they can not get married. No one is saying that they are against being gay. No one is saying that they don't like those that are gay. Show me where that has been said?
If you are hurt by the fact that the majority of people in the entire state of California believe that marriage is between a man and a woman that are both of legal age to get married then get in line with those that think marriage should also be opened up to adults and children, to brothers and sisters, to a man and more than one wife, or a woman and more than one man. to a man and his daughter, to a woman and her son. All of these groups are also wishing that they could have the right to get married.
No one has proved intolerance to what I have said. No one has proved that anyone has been hurt by Prop 8. All that has been shown is that some are upset about the definition of marriage. All that Prop 8 says is that marriage is between a man and a woman. That is all. No one is damaged by that. No one is being told that they can not get married. No one is saying that they are against being gay. No one is saying that they don't like those that are gay. Show me where that has been said?
If you are hurt by the fact that the majority of people in the entire state of California believe that marriage is between a man and a woman that are both of legal age to get married then get in line with those that think marriage should also be opened up to adults and children, to brothers and sisters, to a man and more than one wife, or a woman and more than one man. to a man and his daughter, to a woman and her son. All of these groups are also wishing that they could have the right to get married.
You didn't respond to my last post. Every word I said is true. Prop 8 took away opportunities from gay people. The fact that a gay person can legally marry a straight person is of no importance. People who voted in favor of prop 8 wanted to define marriage as only being legally recognized when two opposite sex individuals participated in it. They voted for this knowing that they were excluding gay couples from getting married in the future. Your absurd attempt at trying to argue that prop 8 isn't discriminatory and hateful just because language such as "under no circumstances can homosexuals get married" wasn't included in the amendment is startling in its sheer ignorance and lack of compassion. I try very hard not to use internet anonymity as an excuse to be rude, but you're obviously not a lawyer and you should leave the dissecting of laws to the professionals because you are terrible at it.
Hey SOON2BNSURPRISE, I just posted a reply to a comment of yours a few minutes ago and afterwards I read your profile for the first time. I don't like arguing with people over gay rights; it's often discouraging and, frankly, I am aware of how awesome my life is, so I don't neep approval/acceptance from everyone. I frequently hear about members of the gay community who are vehemently opposed to all religion, especially LDS churches. I am not one of those people. I used to (when I was a young teenager) see religious people solely on their devotion to religion/God and immediately reject them. I'm not saying you are like this toward gays. What I'm saying is that I have learned that religion shouldn't discourage me from getting to know people. I now frequently looking at the world through their eyes. I would never, never support a law that limited your options in life. You're married, have kids that are legally yours. I support, respect, and appreciate that. I think it's safe to say that no law has ever prevented you from doing what you wanted to do simply because of who you are. That must be a wonderful feeling that you probably don't even think about very much. I've never had that feeling. Man, I don't know why I'm writing all this...the odds of me getting you to become 100% accepting of gays - people just like you - by writing a paragraph on a website devoted to cities is low. Ah well, gotta try.
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