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And with all the disadvantages it goes on anyway.....am I the only one who thinks it's real estate that actually pulls the stings of society? Maybe feudalism never really ended?
You're not the only one. Look out the window as you fly into Orange County, There is a lot of vacant land.
Location: Live:Downtown Phoenix, AZ/Work:Greater Los Angeles, CA
27,606 posts, read 14,457,371 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOON2BNSURPRISE
I actually took the time to read the OP's post. I hadn't earlier but i had some time on my hands.
I don't even consider myself middle class and we own a home. We do make over $100,000 a year but that is not a middle class lifestyle anymore. You need to be in the $200,000 range to hit middle class around here.
The entire post forgets the fact that many will pay off their homes, live in them, and not care what prices are doing. I am working on that right now. I have friends that are doing the same and many that have done it allready and are living in homes that are paid off. I have a co-worker that has 2 homes that are paid off in Ventura. They have two kids and hope to leave each a home. Not that it will matter, both of their kids allready bought a home in the area.
Middle class isn't defined by lifestyle, it's defined by people who make between 50% and 200% of the median income for an area. And I don't know what Ventura County's median income is, but it's $38k for Los Angeles County, so anyone who makes between $19k and $76k per year would be middle class by the conventional definition in LA County. Sure that lower end might not get you a house and brand new car, but again, lifestyle doesn't determine class, your place in the income chain does
First of all, per capita is a useless measure for determining class or standard of living since it includes people who aren't working even kids and elderly. What you need to look at is household income. Which is about $55k in LA city, not sure about county. So by your defininition, 27 to 110 is middle class in the city of LA, which doesn't sound right. Probably more like 60 to 120. We are near the median household income for where I live and it feels middle class (certainly not 200k)
Location: Live:Downtown Phoenix, AZ/Work:Greater Los Angeles, CA
27,606 posts, read 14,457,371 times
Reputation: 9169
Quote:
Originally Posted by DKM
First of all, per capita is a useless measure for determining class or standard of living since it includes people who aren't working even kids and elderly. What you need to look at is household income. Which is about $55k in LA city, not sure about county. So by your defininition, 27 to 110 is middle class in the city of LA, which doesn't sound right. Probably more like 60 to 120. We are near the median household income for where I live and it feels middle class (certainly not 200k)
Again, you are making the fallacy of associating "middle class" with a house and new car. And my figure was median, not per capita. I'm sure per capita is lower than median.
Middle class isn't defined by lifestyle, it's defined by people who make between 50% and 200% of the median income for an area. And I don't know what Ventura County's median income is, but it's $38k for Los Angeles County, so anyone who makes between $19k and $76k per year would be middle class by the conventional definition in LA County. Sure that lower end might not get you a house and brand new car, but again, lifestyle doesn't determine class, your place in the income chain does
Middle class is all about lifestyle and if you think that someone making $38,000 anywhere on the Coast lives a middle class lifestyle then you are smoking something awesome.
People have been told that they have arrived because of a number and that is a big lie that has been told way too long.
On my street are many people that have lived in the area for many years. Both next door neighbors on either side of us inherited their homes. The family across the street bought their home almost 26 years ago for under $160,000. A couple doors down another family that my wife and I have known for years paid somewhere around $180,000 for their home. Another family paid less than $50,000 for their home. They have been here a long time. We all live similar lifestyles, similar homes. It is all tract homes built by the same builder back in the early 60's. We paid over $300,000 for our home. Since we bought our home another couple paid $480,000. One family paid $509,900. Another family paid $529,000. We all live similar lifestyles. I would not consider any of us middle class. At best lower middle class. We are all working class people or in the case of many on my street, retired, former working class people.
To maintain the same or similar lifestyle all of us have different income points. For some it takes less to accomplish the same thing. Housing is either paid for or so low that it does not matter much. Others have a high cost to maintain the same or similar lifestyle. The amount of money has nothing to do with having the middle class lifestyle.
I was recently at my parents home in Surprise Arizona. Talk about an easy way to reach a middle class lifestyle. The entrance fee to the middle class is much easier in Surprise. The residents can afford a lifestyle nicer than our lifestyle on less money. So nice to have a beautiful newer home, newer cars, a boat, motor home, other toys. It is much easier to attain those things in Surprise than in Oxnard California. Here in California on the coast we should have the same expectations in life that someone in Surprise has. We should have the same expectations that someone in Dallas Texas has.
With those expectations about what it means to be in the middle class comes the cost to attain a similar lifestyle as others have. I should not have to compromise my lifestyle expectations because I want to take the easy way out and call myself a part of the middle class when I don't feel that way. At the least I would expect a similar life that I had when I grew up. I am from here. I want the same or a better lifestyle that I had when I was a kid. I want the boat, the RV, a new car every so often. I want to be able to take my wife on a vacation each year. That is what being in the middle class is all about.
It sure is not working just so you can rent a room someplace. Around here rooms rent for $700, $900, $1,000 a month. That $19,000 a year income would not make it with the rent. $50,000 would barely make it for a single person. As a single person you would need $72,000 a year to rent an apartment around here. Figure a family with 4 kids at home and you can see why $200,000 is the number that gets you into the middle class.
Location: Live:Downtown Phoenix, AZ/Work:Greater Los Angeles, CA
27,606 posts, read 14,457,371 times
Reputation: 9169
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOON2BNSURPRISE
Middle class is all about lifestyle and if you think that someone making $38,000 anywhere on the Coast lives a middle class lifestyle then you are smoking something awesome.
People have been told that they have arrived because of a number and that is a big lie that has been told way too long.
On my street are many people that have lived in the area for many years. Both next door neighbors on either side of us inherited their homes. The family across the street bought their home almost 26 years ago for under $160,000. A couple doors down another family that my wife and I have known for years paid somewhere around $180,000 for their home. Another family paid less than $50,000 for their home. They have been here a long time. We all live similar lifestyles, similar homes. It is all tract homes built by the same builder back in the early 60's. We paid over $300,000 for our home. Since we bought our home another couple paid $480,000. One family paid $509,900. Another family paid $529,000. We all live similar lifestyles. I would not consider any of us middle class. At best lower middle class. We are all working class people or in the case of many on my street, retired, former working class people.
To maintain the same or similar lifestyle all of us have different income points. For some it takes less to accomplish the same thing. Housing is either paid for or so low that it does not matter much. Others have a high cost to maintain the same or similar lifestyle. The amount of money has nothing to do with having the middle class lifestyle.
I was recently at my parents home in Surprise Arizona. Talk about an easy way to reach a middle class lifestyle. The entrance fee to the middle class is much easier in Surprise. The residents can afford a lifestyle nicer than our lifestyle on less money. So nice to have a beautiful newer home, newer cars, a boat, motor home, other toys. It is much easier to attain those things in Surprise than in Oxnard California. Here in California on the coast we should have the same expectations in life that someone in Surprise has. We should have the same expectations that someone in Dallas Texas has.
With those expectations about what it means to be in the middle class comes the cost to attain a similar lifestyle as others have. I should not have to compromise my lifestyle expectations because I want to take the easy way out and call myself a part of the middle class when I don't feel that way. At the least I would expect a similar life that I had when I grew up. I am from here. I want the same or a better lifestyle that I had when I was a kid. I want the boat, the RV, a new car every so often. I want to be able to take my wife on a vacation each year. That is what being in the middle class is all about.
It sure is not working just so you can rent a room someplace. Around here rooms rent for $700, $900, $1,000 a month. That $19,000 a year income would not make it with the rent. $50,000 would barely make it for a single person. As a single person you would need $72,000 a year to rent an apartment around here. Figure a family with 4 kids at home and you can see why $200,000 is the number that gets you into the middle class.
By lifestyle definition, which is not correct; the majority of people are poor. What you guys define as middle class would be in the top 5% of earners. Top 5% makes you upper class. Again, this notion of a nice car and house making you middle class is not correct
And per the bolded, what you want or expect and reality don't always coincide. Half of that sounds like entitlement, and the other half sounds like you don't understand supply or demand.
And btw, it's not that easy to attain a middle class lifestyle here as you make it out to be. Our median income is 50% lower than in Los Angeles County, and property isn't as cheap as it used to be either. I make $52k/year or about twice the median for this area, and I don't have a car and live in an apartment; just to give you an idea. So again, what you think or want and what you get are two different things.
What you are defining as middle class is clearly upper class
Again, you are making the fallacy of associating "middle class" with a house and new car. And my figure was median, not per capita. I'm sure per capita is lower than median.
Where did I say anything about a house and car? And you used per capita, which I was saying was wrong because household income is used if you want to define income classes.
I would agree that in our area, only upper class can afford a home. A lot of LA is like that now. Middle class would be renting an apartment here. Same goes for many expensive cities.
If you really want to break down classes you have to separate by age groups. Someone in their 20's making 52k could very well be on their way to an upper middle class life whereas a 50 year old making 52k would be on the lower end. Its also better to use 5 classes, not 3 because there is such a huge gap between lower middle and upper middle income. Lifestyle is not a good indicator too because one group could be saving and one is blowing cash. I know people who make 1/4 what I make and they are living it up paycheck to paycheck. Their facebook accounts would make you think they have made it and mine would not.
By lifestyle definition, which is not correct; the majority of people are poor. What you guys define as middle class would be in the top 5% of earners. Top 5% makes you upper class. Again, this notion of a nice car and house making you middle class is not correct
And per the bolded, what you want or expect and reality don't always coincide. Half of that sounds like entitlement, and the other half sounds like you don't understand supply or demand.
And btw, it's not that easy to attain a middle class lifestyle here as you make it out to be. Our median income is 50% lower than in Los Angeles County, and property isn't as cheap as it used to be either. I make $52k/year or about twice the median for this area, and I don't have a car and live in an apartment; just to give you an idea. So again, what you think or want and what you get are two different things.
What you are defining as middle class is clearly upper class
But it is all about lifestyle. Money only gives a small percentage of what it means to be middle class. It is more about aspirations than money.
Soon after President Obama took office in 2009, he created a task force aimed at raising the living standards of the middle class. But first the task force had to define middle class.
How did it choose to define this group? Through their aspirations ... you know, the house with the white picket fence, the occasional family vacation and a few other things.
Depends on the cost of living. "Why does Pew break the national income averages down by city?
This is because the cost of living varies so much throughout the nation. For example, if you live in San Francisco, a $250,000 household income isn’t upper class. That's because of the cost of living."
And with all the disadvantages it goes on anyway.....am I the only one who thinks it's real estate that actually pulls the stings of society? Maybe feudalism never really ended?
^^Bingo! That is no joke. You said a mouthful right there.
Location: Live:Downtown Phoenix, AZ/Work:Greater Los Angeles, CA
27,606 posts, read 14,457,371 times
Reputation: 9169
Quote:
Originally Posted by DKM
Where did I say anything about a house and car? And you used per capita, which I was saying was wrong because household income is used if you want to define income classes.
I would agree that in our area, only upper class can afford a home. A lot of LA is like that now. Middle class would be renting an apartment here. Same goes for many expensive cities.
If you really want to break down classes you have to separate by age groups. Someone in their 20's making 52k could very well be on their way to an upper middle class life whereas a 50 year old making 52k would be on the lower end. Its also better to use 5 classes, not 3 because there is such a huge gap between lower middle and upper middle income. Lifestyle is not a good indicator too because one group could be saving and one is blowing cash. I know people who make 1/4 what I make and they are living it up paycheck to paycheck. Their facebook accounts would make you think they have made it and mine would not.
My post said median, I did NOT mention per capita. Where did I mention it?
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