[Dwatted Wabbit]

^^ Just dig a cement stohm sellah with a second exit up the hill, stocked with 2 weeks worth of chocolate and coffee.

[farfel]

Originally Posted by arel

So I guess the answers are what I thought: low pay and rough winters.

I guess that if I can get past these two things, plus my resistance to leaving NYC and home, I'm good to go.

but with low pay and rough winters, how is it that property actually costs more in vt(with the possible exception of the northeast kingdom...), especially when compared to the ny side of lake champlain?

in all the property web site searching i've done from washington county, ny, up to the canadian border, i've noticed that there is about a "50% premium", if you will, on comparable vt properties, as opposed to ny properties.

don't get me wrong, i much prefer vt, and would probably pay the difference, but i was just curious how the average vter could afford it.

if anyone else has noticed this and can educate me, i would be very grateful to know. thanks!

[flu189]

The "average" Vermonter in fact cannot afford it. The 300, 400, 500 and above homes are bought primarily with out of state money, assets from trusts, well performing retirement fund portfolios, etc. I have been here two years and work full time for the state as well as serving with the army national guard. My wife works full time as well. Without money we made out of state we would not be able to have the home we have, and it is not one of those McMansions that many see up here. The majority of our coworkers and their families work hard and because of the wages and cost of living will never be able to afford a home and associated standard of living they dream of because they were not fortunate enough to have that boost of initial capital. The level of mortgage, education, and consumer credit debt is just plain frightening especially in a state that exhibits virtually no restraint to curtail wasteful spending and ever increasing means of taxing its population. Read the 2007 update from housingawareness.org report to get a perspective on the Vermont housing and economic indicators. On the plus side, it appears that for those of here already our real estate values should hold their own in comparison to many other states in the US. However, I have had to tap into savings to provide for living necessities and am watching this carefully. If this becomes an ongoing trend then the research for a more affordable future living destination will become more involved. Already I know that the cost of health care insurance foe an early retirement will probably force us out of Vt in a few years. It is kind of ironic that today before going to work my wife commented on some boxes we still have stuff in from our move here and told me to just leave it rather than worry about repacking it again later. For those of you able to sell homes in states where you can make a decent profit be careful not to roll it all into a house here as you will need extra cash for other incidental living expenses here.

[farfel]

Originally Posted by flu189

The "average" Vermonter in fact cannot afford it....

i had suspected it might just be that the "popularity" of vt by originally out-of-state "high end" people is just enough to skew everything unfavorably for the rest of us. this kind of thing happens everywhere nowadays, unfortunately...

i pass through your area about 2-3 times a year, and i can think of one area immediately, that is that section of spear street in south burlington, that has a number of those mcmansions you are talking about. what tasteless eyesores. and i can't imagine that the construction is really all that great. not when you compare them to, let's say, the burlington hill section mansions. now those are masterpieces in every way...

anyway, thanks for your insight and advice. i'll definitely read housingawareness.org carefully. i hope that you can continue to live where you do with every satisfaction.

[MRVphotog]

Regarding real estate prices Vermont is a tale of two Vermonts. If you choose to live in the Burlington area or second home/resort communities like Stowe, Manchester, Dorset, Ludlow, Wilmington prices are high.

There is a whole other Vermont where real estate is very reasonable. Sure you might have to commute to work in many of these places but it's a beautiful commute reminding you every morning why you live in Vermont.

My best buddy bought a great house on a dirt road in Chelsea for $210,00 and he drives to WRJ to work. He and his family really enjoy living there.

I feel painting the entire state as having expensive real estate is grossly inaccurate. Just like most states it depends on which area your looking at.

Flu - I always thought Hinesburg was a real nice town....last week I checked out that new wind power company just north of town and was very impressed. I have been following the real estate prices for years and just don't see the expensive real estate prices currently you talk about. No question that it's close proximity to the Burlington mess will cause prices to rise. So as an investment it's a winner. What am I missing here?
Hinesburg, VT Homes, Real Estate, Condominiums & More - REALTOR.com

[farfel]

Originally Posted by MRVphotog

...
I feel painting the entire state as having expensive real estate is grossly inaccurate. Just like most states it depends on which area your looking at.
...

thanks for your comment. you are right about it depending on where you look.

i myself was focusing on the area about 5-10 miles on either side of the ny-vt border. for example, my research found that if there was a house listed in hoosick falls, ny, for $89k, let's say, a comparable house in a comparable vt town would list well into the $100s. same with land and properties on either side of lake champlain. compare plattsburgh to burlington, or essex to charlotte. one thinks, being "from away", same lake, similar landscape and views, so why the difference?

but i realize by now this is an apples vs. oranges thing, and i'm probably being a little ridiculous, so i'll stop here. there's not a huge point to make except just as a casual observation...

[nunoco]

I'm an ex-NYCer (Brooklyn, represent!) who couldn't afford a third bedroom in Kings County, didn't want to live in the burbs, and had a job flexy enough to move out and still keep it. Thought about Philly (kids' schools too difficult to navigate), New Haven (not there yet), Pittsburgh (too far out of my comfort zone) and settled on Burlington. Then I looked at real estate prices, looked at a map, and explored Plattsburgh. Cheaper, great schools, nice people. Closer to Montreal and Lake Placid. And the hot dogs! Plus, not so smug as the newcomers in VT.
I recommend it.

[MRVphotog]

Originally Posted by farfel

thanks for your comment. you are right about it depending on where you look.

i myself was focusing on the area about 5-10 miles on either side of the ny-vt border. for example, my research found that if there was a house listed in hoosick falls, ny, for $89k, let's say, a comparable house in a comparable vt town would list well into the $100s. same with land and properties on either side of lake champlain. compare plattsburgh to burlington, or essex to charlotte. one thinks, being "from away", same lake, similar landscape and views, so why the difference?

but i realize by now this is an apples vs. oranges thing, and i'm probably being a little ridiculous, so i'll stop here. there's not a huge point to make except just as a casual observation...

I can easily see when looking at the two coasts of Lake Champlain your observation and questions are totally valid. Lots of reasons probably starting with the fact that Burlington has become a very desirable place to live where Plattsburgh simply doesn't enjoy the same rep.

Having grown up in the Daks but became a Vermonter as soon as I graduated HS. For me it's as simple as one side is Vermont and the other is NY. While Burlington/Chittenden County is the economic engine that drives Vermont and has UVM, I wonder if most of the folks down in Albany have even been to Plattsburgh.

While comparing them to each other maybe not a whole lot diferent but when comparing their roles in their state they are complete opposites. Just my .02

[DogLady321]

IMO the answer is a simple one.

Cause there just isn't enough work here to support more population growth.
Brattleboro's population just doesn't seem to ever grow. People come and people go but the population still hovers around 12,000.

[litlux]

Seems to me that Vermont and the adjacent areas of New York, Massachusetts and New Hampshire are all pretty rural and slow growing.

The land use in this area has been farming and dairies for a very long time, and while the independent dairy farms in the state have declined terribly with the poor prices paid for milk, there is a growing local farm movement that could encorage the remaining ones to hang in.

I think the blind assumption that low population is not good is exactly what it right with the state. Sure, growth helps everything grow faster exonomically, but what about quality of life.

Imagine, snow, and I am forced to spend the day in front of the fireplace reading a book.

And the problem with that is.......?

Of course, you have to figure out how to be self sufficient enough to plan around these problems, too. I think that is why the people in the farm areas are both so damn tough....but can be so unusually nice, too.

After reading the Omnivore's Dilemma I have developed a new respect for the rugged individualism the old time residents represent.