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It seems that population follows the rules of supply and demand. Having a stable population is for aesthetics a good thing. The population seems to have a transient element to it. Over the last two months quite a few places around my way have gone up for sale and if someone is outside I'll stop to chat and have found that the majority are leaving state once the house sells. Then of course out of staters come up and buy, so it all keeps a balance going. Not much new construction going on, mostly resales of extisting homes, some of which have very nice landscaped properties.
And while the independent dairy farms in the state have declined terribly with the poor prices paid for milk, there is a growing local farm movement that could encorage the remaining ones to hang in.
Milk prices are soaring lately. We should also clarify that while the number of small Vermont farms is dwindling, there are more probably more active milking cows today then there ever has been in Vermont. It's due to consolidation. 50 years ago a large dairy would be milking 80 cows. Today, a large Vermont dairy will be milking at least 500. I know of quite a few that have broken 1,000 cows. At this size, economies of scale allow the dairy producer to survive yoyo'ing prices. And these are _not_ big corporate dairies. For the most part it's just one farming family surviving, and buying adjoining parcels when their neighbor wants to get out of farming. Leveraging up to handle the massive capital investment that dairy farming requires. That's what's gone on with my in-laws, who started with something like 450 acres in Orwell in 1976, but have broken past 1,000 acres today.
My 68 year old father in-law, who spends increasingly more time down here in the Roanoke, VA area particularly during the winter, mentioned to me last week while he was here that Vermont's Conserved Lands Database has broken 1.15 million acres. That's 20% of the entire land area of Vermont that has been conserved. Probably close to 400,000 of these acres are through the Vermont Land Trust, which mandates that the land be kept open and in active agriculture.
I'm an ex-NYCer (Brooklyn, represent!) who couldn't afford a third bedroom in Kings County, didn't want to live in the burbs, and had a job flexy enough to move out and still keep it. Thought about Philly (kids' schools too difficult to navigate), New Haven (not there yet), Pittsburgh (too far out of my comfort zone) and settled on Burlington. Then I looked at real estate prices, looked at a map, and explored Plattsburgh. Cheaper, great schools, nice people. Closer to Montreal and Lake Placid. And the hot dogs! Plus, not so smug as the newcomers in VT.
I recommend it.
I have been looking at Plattsburgh real estate for about 18 months online. I also sent for the chamber of commerce package. It is WAY more affordable. I am not advertising but look up Foote Ryan Century 21 real estate in Plattsburgh. 2000 sq. ft. homes for $129,000.
I think Vermont is a prestige label. Does your wife emotionally need the pricey zip code is the question. Are you the type of person that is driving a vehicle paid for with a home equity loan? NOT ME!
Also, I saw someone mention Hinesburg, VT. in this blog. One thing I have been doing in FL. where I live now is finishing college and going toward a masters degree and obtaining graduate certificates in human resources. If you look up census data from 1990 and 2000 you will see that about 75% o the USA population does not have a completed college education. That is certainly true in Plattsburgh. However, if you look up the Hinesburg, VT. stats you will find that 40% have a BA or higher degree such as a masters or Phd. That is some stiff competition. My chances will be much better in Plattsburgh. I would rather be a big fish in a small pond than an average fish in Hinesburg, VT. Overall VT. has a higher rate of educated inhabitants. So again, do you want prestige or a better life?
The prestige and the skiing is just one bridge away from Plattsburgh. I think it would be much easier to make a living and get by in the burgh rather than in the VT.
The "average" Vermonter in fact cannot afford it. The 300, 400, 500 and above homes are bought primarily with out of state money, assets from trusts, well performing retirement fund portfolios, etc. I have been here two years and work full time for the state as well as serving with the army national guard. My wife works full time as well. Without money we made out of state we would not be able to have the home we have, and it is not one of those McMansions that many see up here. The majority of our coworkers and their families work hard and because of the wages and cost of living will never be able to afford a home and associated standard of living they dream of because they were not fortunate enough to have that boost of initial capital. The level of mortgage, education, and consumer credit debt is just plain frightening especially in a state that exhibits virtually no restraint to curtail wasteful spending and ever increasing means of taxing its population. Read the 2007 update from housingawareness.org report to get a perspective on the Vermont housing and economic indicators. On the plus side, it appears that for those of here already our real estate values should hold their own in comparison to many other states in the US. However, I have had to tap into savings to provide for living necessities and am watching this carefully. If this becomes an ongoing trend then the research for a more affordable future living destination will become more involved. Already I know that the cost of health care insurance foe an early retirement will probably force us out of Vt in a few years. It is kind of ironic that today before going to work my wife commented on some boxes we still have stuff in from our move here and told me to just leave it rather than worry about repacking it again later. For those of you able to sell homes in states where you can make a decent profit be careful not to roll it all into a house here as you will need extra cash for other incidental living expenses here.
You bring up a very good point. In Florida a lot of the big developments like Lakewood Ranch in Sarasota are owned by rich jerks from all over the country. Those of us that live and work here year round are screwed by stagnant wages and increasing prices on everything else, especially property taxes.
My plan is to wait out the housing slump at least until 2009, keep gaining post graduate college degrees, then move to Plattsburgh and rent an apartment and live and work for 6 months to a year. If I like it I may buy a home and stay, if not I will move on and do it again elsewhere but certainly not in Vermont.
Florida and Vermont are very similar regarding the fact that they are primarily based on the service industry. Both are great places to visit but to live and make a living they are just not rational choices unless you have deep pockets of old money.
I read an article about New Yorkers (and the same can be said about people from other expensive areas) selling pricey properties, buying a smaller, less expensive home in another locale, such as Connecticut, and pocketing the difference. If you are able to buy a relatively inexpensive home in Vermont with cash from a house sale, you can forget about rent or mortgage payments. Your housing costs would be limited to insurance and property taxes. That would eliminate a big chunk of living expenses. Yes, food, heat and other expenses are not cheap, but I would think that if your rent/mortgage were out of the way you could live pretty comfortably on the local salaries, especially if you have an in-demand profession.
Does this make sense to people who live in Vermont? Or are there hidden expenses that eat away even what you have put away for retirement money?
Brooklyn has, I believe, about 2.5 million people. Maybe more. I think more people live in southern Brooklyn than in all of Vermont.
One reason I want to move is to escape the congestion. Even by itself, the congestion has the potential to turn New York into a death trap if there is a disaster.
It would probably be easier to evacuate from Brattleboro if there were a disaster at Vermont Yankee. But I think an evacuation would cause a lot of congestion because the roads are not designed to contain that many people at once. I have read of "evacuation in place".
my one town in Fla has more people in it than the entire state of vermont.. thats kinda scary and cool at the samet ime
Living mortgage free would of course open up additional funds for other pursuits, but with tax increases and especially energy costs and medical premiums increasing at rates far above that of income it can still be a stretch. Unexpected or seasonal expenses such as repairs and replacement of appliances can jolt even the best financial plans. With tax time once again approaching I have already been crunching numbers and of course I am assuming healthy annual property tax increases and will not be surprised if heating oil will reach the 3.75 to 4.00 range for next season. Another factor which will weigh heavily this year is what the performance of retirement investments will be. I personally know no one who has amassed such a portfolio that tax and cost of living increases have very little if any bearing on impacting their lifestyle choices. However, I do know people who have yet come to terms and an understanding that the credit well will eventually run dry and their lifestyle choices will no longer be sustainable at the rate they spend. Unlike the state these folks do not have other's pockets to pick at will. In any case, it will be interesting to see what 2008 and beyond brings. Where my wife works they are cutting back hours 20% per week (one shift) due to low bookings until further notice so this is not a pleasant indicator of things to come. The latest census report confirms that Vermont has become an exodus state which will keep population flat for the forseeable future.
I read an article about New Yorkers (and the same can be said about people from other expensive areas) selling pricey properties, buying a smaller, less expensive home in another locale, such as Connecticut, and pocketing the difference. If you are able to buy a relatively inexpensive home in Vermont with cash from a house sale, you can forget about rent or mortgage payments. Your housing costs would be limited to insurance and property taxes. That would eliminate a big chunk of living expenses. Yes, food, heat and other expenses are not cheap, but I would think that if your rent/mortgage were out of the way you could live pretty comfortably on the local salaries, especially if you have an in-demand profession.
Does this make sense to people who live in Vermont? Or are there hidden expenses that eat away even what you have put away for retirement money?
I have heard that Californians were selling high and then moving, or retiring, to places like Payson, AZ. where homes used to be $100,000 back in the late 1990s. I have heard about it in Oregon too. I have heard this drives the market up and makes it less affordable for those who have lived their lives there.
I don't like freezing cold long season winters, but being able to afford a better quality of life by profiting off of a home sale seems irresistable.
The psychological benefits alone of not having to pay off a mortgage would more than make up for the Lake Champlain weather.
Hello. I spent all my summers on Potash Bay. My Grandparents had the cottage and we enjoyed Vermont. I now am looking for a small cottage on the lake and I am agast with the prices of realestate. Of course this was years ago. But we sold the cottage for 18,000. A 5 bedroom cottage on 3/4 acre on the lake. Today that place is 400,000. It is rediculous the prices for land . On the NY side prices are less but I have always remembered as a youngster., Helping the Farmer with his cows, the auctions, fishing. I will say that the people who lived there were not very friendly and the people who were there in the summers and people who were moving in treated us more kindly. I still love Vermont and still want to retire there.
Hello. I spent all my summers on Potash Bay. My Grandparents had the cottage and we enjoyed Vermont. I now am looking for a small cottage on the lake and I am agast with the prices of realestate. Of course this was years ago. But we sold the cottage for 18,000. A 5 bedroom cottage on 3/4 acre on the lake. Today that place is 400,000. It is rediculous the prices for land . On the NY side prices are less but I have always remembered as a youngster., Helping the Farmer with his cows, the auctions, fishing. I will say that the people who lived there were not very friendly and the people who were there in the summers and people who were moving in treated us more kindly. I still love Vermont and still want to retire there.
When this thread got started, right before the "big recession" I bet the cost of the property your talking about was probably more. Real estate prices in Vermont do not flucuate like other states but they are down from 2 years ago.
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Plattsburgh rather than Vermont
Real estate prices in Vermont do not flucuate like other states but they are down from 2 years ago.
