[Sherylcatmom]

Originally Posted by mustmove

VT's syrup production is a drop in the bucket compared to Canada's.

Absurd to compare tiny Vermont's syrup production to a vast nation's. How about comparing it with other states and also it's place in Vermont's economy and culture? Nothing wrong with Canada syrup or that of other states. It's just that Vermont's counts, too, and your absurd comparisons won't invalidate that.

Originally Posted by mustmove

Funny how the anti trade ideal is mixed with Ludditeism, back in the old days everyone wanted trade, they knew trade would make their lives better so people dug huge canals by hand, and built railroads across the country without earth moving equipment. Why? because trade improved their lives.

You're posting as if you're responding to posts here, but clearly you haven't read them. You disparage significant Vermonters as "historical" when we've been discussing living people as much as historical ones. Maybe reading the posts before responding would help.

No one here is suggesting the virtues of being Luddite or a return to the bad old days -- or even being anti-trade, which apparently you're thinking about though we weren't. Trade is vital and critical and needs to be done in a way that supports the particular populations and contributions of each area without exploiting and decimating them,

Your subjective experience of Vermont does not turn stereotypes into truth. Hey, I don't judge people who live in Massachusetts just because some of them speak badly of others and discount others' input.

[arctichomesteader]

Originally Posted by mustmove

VT's syrup production is a drop in the bucket compared to Canada's. Dairy is insignificant compared to the Midwest and only a couple of percent of VT's paltry economy. Might be the best granite, but granite ain't doing much for Barre. All of the historical contributions are irrelevant today. Endless growth is not impossible, you just need people endlessly inventing new ways of doing things. Replace whale oil with kerosene, 100 years ago NYCs biggest pollution problem was horse droppings, the world changes for the better. Hunkering down in do nothing VT isn't the answer, get out there with other smart driven people and build stuff. Trade is good. Cheaper honey saves you money. Stop being Luddites pining for the bad old days. Funny how the anti trade ideal is mixed with Ludditeism, back in the old days everyone wanted trade, they knew trade would make their lives better so people dug huge canals by hand, and built railroads across the country without earth moving equipment. Why? because trade improved their lives.

Canada is also a very big country. VT's syrup production is quite impressive for so small a state, and larger than any other U.S. state despite there being larger states that could make syrup. VT dairy finds its way throughout the Northeast so is significant regionally. Hard for VT granite to compete with cheap imports.

I'm not against trade, I'm against free trade with the third world, which results in simply people there exploited for cheap labor, people here left un or under employed, and a few people rake in the cash. I support fair trade not free trade. Free trade has destroyed millions of lives here and abroad.

The historical contributions disprove your theory that slow paced rural areas don't contribute anything. In reality, I could argue rural areas are most important: we can't live without food, clothing and shelter (all of which comes from rural areas: food, cotton, wool, timber, etc.), but we can live without gadgets and stocks and banks and such. Those industrial areas of NJ you think are so good, would be dead without rural areas. And speaking of that, no, there's only so many resources in the world, you can't grow forever.

BTW: burning fluid, invented by one of my ancestors, replaced whale oil. Kerosene came later.

[terrasurf]

Watching the once great state of Vermont crumble under the weight of apathetic aging hippies hiding under their shroud of cultural relativism is enough to bring tears.

How stupid. There are plenty of lower and middle-class Americans who want nothing more than a decent home and job- many these days struggle to maintain even that. Many people don't have the resources to do much more, and shouldn't have to feel guilty about "making the world a better place". This kind of idealism, however noble, as always come from the class of people that can afford to make such judgments. Some people can do it, and others can't.

[mustmove]

All of the VTers that made anything of themselves left VT to do it. And Free trade helps everyone, to be against it on the idea of protecting something that other people can do better is being a Luddite. Those third world employees earning a dollar a day have it better than being hunter gatherers. We have it better because our shoes are cheaper. If you work in a US shoe factory, well sorry, disruptive innovation makes the world better, despite some scale personal losses that occur. If foriegn granite is cheaper than VT granite including shipping costs than good for the granite users. VT granite workers need to move on(and possibly out of state.)

[Bang!]

Originally Posted by arctichomesteader

The historical contributions disprove your theory that slow paced rural areas don't contribute anything.

Calling the old Vermont "slow paced" is a gross mis-characterization. Its true, Vermont has a rich history of entrepreneurialism and invention, however, the character of the state today is nothing more than a shadow of the past. Take a look at photos of Burlington or Rutland from the 100+ years back and you'll see a vibrancy that hasn't been matched since. Years ago Vermont was a land of opportunity, a place where men did great things, which is why it's so sad to see what its becoming today.

[Sherylcatmom]

Originally Posted by mustmove

All of the VTers that made anything of themselves left VT to do it.

Please cite data to demonstrate this. Please offer actual quantifiable data, not just a handful of anecdotal examples for which we'll just offer a handful of examples of those who stayed here to be great.

Originally Posted by mustmove

And Free trade helps everyone

Your opinion, to be sure, and one which has data demonstrating widely different views, yours being just one of them. Just as you can probably cite data showing its benefits for some, I can cite data showing that so-called "free" trade (versus fair and responsible trade) irreparably harms the environment and plunges formerly sustainable cultures into poverty, all so privileged people can acquire stuff cheap with no corresponding increase in their happiness or health.

[mustmove]

Fair trade coffee hurt third world coffee merchants. Stupid idea. Free trade helps everyone. Simple fact. That VTers can't understand that, speaks to the current population and why they underperform educationally and economically. Tell me about great instate Vermonters. Ben and Jerry perhaps? Do they still live in VT? Were they even native VTers?

[Sherylcatmom]

Originally Posted by mustmove

Fair trade coffee hurt third world coffee merchants. Stupid idea. Free trade helps everyone. Simple fact. That VTers can't understand that, speaks to the current population and why they underperform educationally and economically. Tell me about great instate Vermonters. Ben and Jerry perhaps? Do they still live in VT? Were they even native VTers?

Again, your opinion and another rash of generalizations with no data to back up anything. Questions intended to create argument and deny the experience other people can cite with as much authority as yours. Not helpful, not moving a discussion forward. Just ranting.

[swanstone1]

Originally Posted by mustmove

Fair trade coffee hurt third world coffee merchants. Stupid idea. Free trade helps everyone. Simple fact. That VTers can't understand that, speaks to the current population and why they underperform educationally and economically. Tell me about great instate Vermonters. Ben and Jerry perhaps? Do they still live in VT? Were they even native VTers?

Bingo Mr mustmove. We are talking about a whole new influx of people who can afford to come and live here thanks to technology. What's so wrong with making your bucks elsewhere and bringing them to live in vacationland? Wowza! if that seems like a bad idea....jealous?

Sure kids in VT are pretty bored cuz it really doesn't offer what "society and tv" says it should. My daughter actually cries when we go to a city and she sees high-rises. So, if you want more...go do/get more and I encourage her to do it daily. I personally haven't found the niche to continue being a gold/silver bullion trader/numismatist/estate jewelry dealer/designer/oex trader and home remodeler simultaneously. However, by being in a great little state that makes me "stop and smell the roses" not stop and sniff the concrete, I am much richer. And who the heck cares if it takes me an hour to get to a walmart....there are lots of little great places to stop and have a quickie along the way. Now THAT my friend is what I'm talking about by enjoying the simple things in life and it's not happening while sitting in an hour long traffic jam trying to go 20 miles 300 days a year in pursuit of the dollar.

[mustmove]

What you wrote should be a sticky. Nothing at all wrong with folks moving in with their out of state dollars(Artichomesteader and all the natives that suffer high prices due to money earned elsewhere setting local prices might disagree.) As long as folks understand that VT will bleed that wealth dry and replacing that money while living and working in VT is unlikely. And the schools are terrible.
Not a bad idea at all, of course if the people stop rotating in, the money stops, might not be sustainable.

Originally Posted by swanstone1

Bingo Mr mustmove. We are talking about a whole new influx of people who can afford to come and live here thanks to technology. What's so wrong with making your bucks elsewhere and bringing them to live in vacationland? Wowza! if that seems like a bad idea....jealous?