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We are dealing with politicians who don't want to upset any one group that could cost them re-election.
When the current crop of Republican obstructionists in Congress is burning in hell, Congress should be able to get back to work and start passing more sensible laws. The problems with Social Security are solvable, but other programs like Medicare are going to be more difficult.
Well they have IBM don't they? I don't think anyone thinks of IBM when they think of Vermont. Amazon could easily have a distribution center anywhere they wanted. Some businesses actually want small populations largely due to traffic. How far is Vermont from NYC and Montreal? Boston can be expensive and so can Providence. If a company wants to create some regional hq they might put it in VT.
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Basically what I am trying to get at is that in order to grow you have to make the area conducive to business. It gets harder to attract businesses, events and gatherings if populations decline. I agree VT is not a retirement destination but then again places that were considered that (south and south west - AZ/NV/FL etc) are not doing well in the property market.
Well Vermonters think of IBM when they think of Burlington. Without IBM there wouldn't be too much going on up there. And IBM regularly threatens to take thei ball and go play somewhere else over energy, taxes etc.
Amazon could easily have a distribution center anywhere, and they just put one in Indiana. Indiana is a right to work state - Vermont is not.
Spoiler
We assume Vermont is hopeless and prefers to be a tourist and natural history museum.
Vermont has mountains, is not in the middle of anything, gets snowed in a lot, has high heating and utility costs, a state government that views businesses as a necessary evil. So why in the world would any business set up shop here? About the only type of business that Vermont has activly courted has been captive insurance, which has done wonders for Montpelier. It's exactly the type of business that fits in there - people sitting on their hind ends behind desks. Vermont Captive Insurance: Risk Management | Risk Retention | Captive Insurance Domicile | Captive Management
I agree with you that Vermont needs to change its attitude SOON about businesses, but I don't see it happening anytime soon. There are too many people who have moved here from elsewhere who either do not want or do not understand businesses, and they choose our government. Ergo, our government is not going to do squat. What needs to be done has been said over and over and over and over and over and it has not made a dent. http://www.vermont.org/pdf/2010_GA_surveycomments.pdf
Vermont has a tradition of eating its seed corn and it is doing a good job of that right now. If it moves, tax it. It never occurs to the dimwits in Montpeculiar that NO business is obligated to stay here and that if conditions are made so unfavorable that they will leave. States are in competition for businesses and the simple "red-barn-black-and-white-cow-image" is not sufficient incentive for real businesses. In fact a leading reason to locate a business in Vermont is the "ties to Vermont" argument. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...9l3P8K-zigpM7Q
Note that this reason ranked higher than skilled labor, low state taxes, good infrastructure, inexpensive utilities, or the presence of complementary firms.
What Vermont does not need are Super Walmart, Costo Home Depot and other box stores that sell crap. Retail, especially retail based on buying bottom drawer quality crap from China and hiring sales associates at $7.50/hr to sell it to people on welfare is not going to save the VT economy. Granted, Montpelier sent an estimated 3000 jobs in retail over the CT river to NH and turned the downtowns of BF, Springfield, Windsor, WRJ and others into ghost towns. http://www.vermonttiger.com/files/un...uences-2-1.pdf
However at this point those downtowns are a lost cause, and plunking down a box store "somewhere" in order to lure Vermonters in to buy shoddy goods will not achieve anything. What Vermont needs are businesses that creat or add value to something and bring money IN from out of state. The problem is quite simply that there are too many barriers, some intentional, some just plain stupid.
And I say this as someone who has been running a business in Vermont for ten years, gotten beat up one one of our lovely state agencies, watched three of my manufacturing customers pick and move across the river, taking their jobs with them, and having served on the Board of Directors of a business incubator. Vermont WANTS to turn into a state where the wealthy keep to themselves in their little fake communities, vote down any measures that would put Vermonters to work (or file complaints to drag out the permitting process), where individual regulators see their job as to make sure that nothing happens, and where out government employees are accountable to no one. At the same time, we have the second generation of welfare recipients in the non-touristy areas (except for those with the means or gumption to get out), where the economies run on welfare, yard sales and drug deals.
I don't see this changing anytime soon. People - including heads of good sized companies have told this to our legislators - it hasn't made even a small dent.
OK but do you know about gentrification? If properties decline in value and wages eventually other parties move in. It happened in Boston, DC, NYC and plenty of smaller areas..even internationally.
Since I worked for years in historic preservation, I’m well aware of gentrification. It’s a phenomenon most likely to happen in city neighborhoods that are close to already prosperous neighborhoods. The demand for houses in the better neighborhoods exceeds the supply, and thus people (and developers and banks) look to neighborhoods nearby where bargains can be had for people who are willing to rehab. These situations bear not a single point of resemblance to conditions in rural Vermont. Furthermore, “smaller” areas where this has occurred (and I assume you mean to indicate these areas bear some resemblance to Vermont) are almost invariably within an hour’s drive of a large metropolitan area. This has occurred in areas like Bucks County, in Pennsylvania, where – although the county was once rural and parts still are – has seen both gentrification and a huge increase in the value of property due to relative closeness to Philadelphia/New York City. Rural areas of Vermont don’t fall into this category.
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Originally Posted by mdovell
"If suddenly they DID want a Super Walmart, they couldn't simply get one by "accepting" it. "
Well that's what happened in Santa Cruz. The place is like vermont I would argue politically. They noticed how many had a membership to costco and that they travel to it so they pretty much courted it and received it.
The fact that Santa Cruz may be like Vermont politically has nothing to do with my contention that it takes a level of population to attract big box stores. Santa Cruz County has a population of 262,382 as of 2010. The population of the ENTIRE state of Vermont is 626,431. This supports the point I was making. Costco didn’t come to Santa Cruz because people courted it or “accepted” it; it came because the population was sufficiently high so that Costco believed it could thrive there. It was about the potential for profit and nothing else. We’ve seen in the past that big box stores, if they think the population is sufficient for a profit, will do everything in their power to challenge local ordinances and/or public opinion, including taking local governments to court.
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Originally Posted by mdovell
"Super Walmarts are opened in places that, first and foremost, have the population to support them. "
Funny you mention them as they tried to open up one in my town 15 years ago but was denied. They had a general "my way or the highway" attitude. Other retailers we could actually speak to and agree for certain things. Yes you can ask for conditions for opening a store it happens.
As I said, if you look into it, you’ll find that Walmart rarely gives up when they think there’s money to be made. Often they’ll go over to the next municipality, but they also often challenge the town in court, where they can win by default because towns just don’t have that kind of money to spend on a prolonged legal defense. Yes, you can “ask” all you like, but if Walmart really wants to be in your town, more likely than not they’ll get their way. To quote from an article in the Vermont Journal of Environmental Law, “There have been hundreds of Wal-Mart related litigated cases focusing on land use planning and zoning issues surrounding the siting of these mega-stores.”
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdovell
Well they have IBM don't they? I don't think anyone thinks of IBM when they think of Vermont. Amazon could easily have a distribution center anywhere they wanted. Some businesses actually want small populations largely due to traffic. How far is Vermont from NYC and Montreal? Boston can be expensive and so can Providence. If a company wants to create some regional hq they might put it in VT.
Let me ask you this. When you think of Detroit what do you picture? Empty buildings, broken down cars, massive unemployment etc..ok What about Quicken?
Yes it is a office building but the fact remains if you tried to convince anyone of this a decade ago they would have thought you were drunk! Does Detroit scream "business friendly" to you?
To illustrate your belief, you’ve chosen two atypical examples – but then, you didn’t have much to choose from, so this is understandable. IBM is an anomaly in Vermont. If this weren’t true, they would have been followed by other companies, but that has not been the case. And Quicken’s expansion in Detroit – well, for your second example you had to make a comparison with a place that could not be more unlike Vermont. Detroit, for all its problems, is still a city with a population of 713,777, the 18th most populous city in the U.S., and a major port. The metro Detroit area has a population of 4,296,250. A comparison of any kind to Vermont is beyond absurd. And no, Detroit does not scream “business friendly” but, by virtue of the huge population, it inevitably does have plenty of business activity and ability to attract business. As for Amazon putting a distribution center in Vermont, this is pure fantasy. Why would they greatly increase their costs by locating a distribution center as far as possible from the areas to which most items they sell are delivered?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdovell
Basically what I am trying to get at is that in order to grow you have to make the area conducive to business. It gets harder to attract businesses, events and gatherings if populations decline.
And now you contradict yourself, having first said that you had to grow the population in order to attract business. Now you say that “in order to grow you have to make the area conducive to business” and then “It’s hard to attract businesses if the population declines.” I would once again make my original point: if any business decides to set up shop in Vermont and is able to employ more than the number of people they can hire locally, people will come to Vermont for those jobs. People will NOT come to Vermont just to increase the population, in hopes that companies will notice and come here to employ them. If the population is to increase (and I wouldn’t, personally, argue in favor of that) it will have to be as a result of first attracting business.
"Vermont has mountains, is not in the middle of anything, gets snowed in a lot, has high heating and utility costs, a state government that views businesses as a necessary evil. So why in the world would any business set up shop here?"
Because eventually things can change. Take a look at many of the laws in Mass. Happy hours were banned around '85. You couldn't open up a shop on sundays until 2005..heck a restaurant wouldn't even be able to serve you on sunday mornings or afternoons (until it actually was "after noon). Tattoo parlors were illegal for 30 or so years. In the early 90's things changed. Businesses could open up on sundays (as long as it was voluntary and they paid OT), tats were made legal, heck marijuana was decriminalized. Of course opening up a business is a risk but there's a higher risk if competitors are more willing to take a risk. It reminds me that walmart is actually one of the largest supporters of hiking the minimum wage...why? Because they can afford it.
"What Vermont does not need are Super Walmart, Costo Home Depot and other box stores that sell crap. Retail, especially retail based on buying bottom drawer quality crap from China and hiring sales associates at $7.50/hr to sell it to people on welfare is not going to save the VT economy. Granted, Montpelier sent an estimated 3000 jobs in retail over the CT river to NH and turned the downtowns of BF, Springfield, Windsor, WRJ and others into ghost towns."
I'm not saying it is going to "save" the economy but since there is nothing preventing people from shopping at any of those stores (anything can be sold online for the most part) some would ask why they can get the product but not the jobs. Besides sometimes that low ended work might be better suited to those that are very young. I used to work at one box store, it was OK. Frankly we didn't put anyone out of business. Within a five mile radius there are still plenty of hardware stores, supply stores (glass and plumbing), garden centers, bath showrooms, fireplace stores, independent appliance stores etc. Youth unemployment is very high and to deny employment just because something is low is a bad public policy. When you think of the economic effects and social (real life networking) it can be good. i'm not saying to go crazy with it but I saw plenty of small shops in VT that probably pay the same level. I saw three book stores in Burlington right across from one another. I'm all for books and have a small library (100+) but what is unique about one from the other If someone wants a book they just want to go to a book store. If a book store only carries certain types of books (mystery, science fiction etc) then that means less business in the long run.
"However at this point those downtowns are a lost cause, and plunking down a box store "somewhere" in order to lure Vermonters in to buy shoddy goods will not achieve anything. What Vermont needs are businesses that creat or add value to something and bring money IN from out of state. The problem is quite simply that there are too many barriers, some intentional, some just plain stupid."
I understand what you mean but in terms of development what has demand these days? Of course there is always food and there could be festivals but is that going to bring people year round?
"Costco didn’t come to Santa Cruz because people courted it or “accepted” it; it came because the population was sufficiently high so that Costco believed it could thrive there. It was about the potential for profit and nothing else. We’ve seen in the past that big box stores, if they think the population is sufficient for a profit, will do everything in their power to challenge local ordinances and/or public opinion, including taking local governments to court."
As I said Walmart tried to come to my town back in '95 but they treated relations with the town poorly and they gave up. They opened some others in other towns in the area. Not all retailers open up stores where they think they will profit. At the one I worked at I know of a store that has not made payroll in probably five or so years..actually it hasn't since day one. Many retailers subsidize their stores in areas with losses because they can care more about market share rather than actual profit (they can squeeze more from suppliers then)
"As I said, if you look into it, you’ll find that Walmart rarely gives up when they think there’s money to be made."
Which is why after walmart walked in my town there's now three box stores that are all doing well one of which is is the exactly location they were after.
"Why would they greatly increase their costs by locating a distribution center as far as possible from the areas to which most items they sell are delivered?"
Because well it happens. Vermont isn't the lowest populated state in the country, Wyoming is. Once you factor in the size there are much fewer people per square mile. And yet if you examine it there's plenty of warehouses all over the place - Google Search
I've never met anyone from Wyoming (no offense to anyone) but sometimes it is just too expensive to warehouse items close to people. In Mass I see roads every day that say "No trucks on Sundays". Highways can only get you so far so that really slows things down.
With reference to Detroit they don't have a huge population. It has been shrinking for the past 30 or so years. Generally businesses do not go to areas that shrink. That is one of the major differences between say Russia and China.
"And now you contradict yourself, having first said that you had to grow the population in order to attract business. Now you say that “in order to grow you have to make the area conducive to business” and then “It’s hard to attract businesses if the population declines.” I would once again make my original point: if any business decides to set up shop in Vermont and is able to employ more than the number of people they can hire locally, people will come to Vermont for those jobs. People will NOT come to Vermont just to increase the population, in hopes that companies will notice and come here to employ them. If the population is to increase (and I wouldn’t, personally, argue in favor of that) it will have to be as a result of first attracting business."
But are those jobs large enough to really attract people? Small city feelings of places like Burlington and Montpelier is greater but is someone really going to travel to get a job at a independent store? Yes there is education, government and hospitals but there is only so much that employs. If those are the only industries that attract people then eventually you see a divide which pretty much is what FrugalYankee stated. Eventually you have to loosen up the laws to allow businesses to open. Mass found that out the hard way in the early 1990s.
Because eventually things can change. Take a look at many of the laws in Mass. Happy hours were banned around '85. You couldn't open up a shop on sundays until 2005..heck a restaurant wouldn't even be able to serve you on sunday mornings or afternoons (until it actually was "after noon). Tattoo parlors were illegal for 30 or so years. In the early 90's things changed. Businesses could open up on sundays (as long as it was voluntary and they paid OT), tats were made legal, heck marijuana was decriminalized. Of course opening up a business is a risk but there's a higher risk if competitors are more willing to take a risk. It reminds me that walmart is actually one of the largest supporters of hiking the minimum wage...why? Because they can afford it.
Sure they can change. Not only are things changing, conditions are getting WORSE not better for businesses. For example the mandatory healthcare contribution from small businesses. Since I started my business, I've seen this mandatory contribution get introduced and then watch the maximum number of employees drop from 8 to 6 to 4 which exempt a business from having to make a contribution. And you want to know a real hoot? Even though my business has LESS than four employees and even though I reported the EXACT number of employees on the unemployment contribution form, the VT DoL nonetheless saw fit to fine my business because I did not enter zeroes into the fields to report health care contributions. Usually if an entry is zero, you don't enter anything right? No, not in Vermont. If you don't specifically enter "zero" they use it as an excuse to fine your business. Pretty funny huh? Their own website says that businesses with fewer than four employees don't need to perform the calculation, but not reporting the result of the calculation which you are not legally obliged to carry out gets you fined. Welcome to Vermont, where the state agencies make up the rules as they go along.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdovell
I'm not saying it is going to "save" the economy but since there is nothing preventing people from shopping at any of those stores (anything can be sold online for the most part) some would ask why they can get the product but not the jobs. Besides sometimes that low ended work might be better suited to those that are very young. I used to work at one box store, it was OK. Frankly we didn't put anyone out of business. Within a five mile radius there are still plenty of hardware stores, supply stores (glass and plumbing), garden centers, bath showrooms, fireplace stores, independent appliance stores etc. Youth unemployment is very high and to deny employment just because something is low is a bad public policy. When you think of the economic effects and social (real life networking) it can be good. i'm not saying to go crazy with it but I saw plenty of small shops in VT that probably pay the same level. I saw three book stores in Burlington right across from one another. I'm all for books and have a small library (100+) but what is unique about one from the other If someone wants a book they just want to go to a book store. If a book store only carries certain types of books (mystery, science fiction etc) then that means less business in the long run.
The bolded part must be the way that upper management in Lowes sees things. We have a thriving regional chain of building supply stores (which has closed most of its locations in VT) as well as a smaller chain of hardware stores and some scattered ACE hardware building supply stores. This didn't stop Home Depot from putting in a big box store in a town having a population of a little over 10,000. Two years later, a Lowes set up a shop right next door to the Home Depot. It didn't take a Wharton MBA to see that there was not enough buying power to keep all these stores in business. The Lowes closed almost as soon as it was opened. Moral of the story: if you are going to start a business, consider researching consumers and demand. University towns tend to be heavy on bookstores.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdovell
I understand what you mean but in terms of development what has demand these days? Of course there is always food and there could be festivals but is that going to bring people year round?
Medical devices, autmotive aftermarket parts, contract machining, high end sporting equipment to name just a few items that are manufactured in the region.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdovell
Because well it happens. Vermont isn't the lowest populated state in the country, Wyoming is. Once you factor in the size there are much fewer people per square mile. And yet if you examine it there's plenty of warehouses all over the place
I've never met anyone from Wyoming (no offense to anyone) but sometimes it is just too expensive to warehouse items close to people. In Mass I see roads every day that say "No trucks on Sundays". Highways can only get you so far so that really slows things down.
There is more to it than population distribution. You have to look at the overall business climate. Vermont ranks 48th. I think the only reason that things are going so well in Chittenden county is that VT looks good compared to nearby New York, which ranks rock bottom 50! Then look at Wyoming. Small Business and Entrepreneurship Council
Some states try hard to court businesses and others do their best to hound them away. Vermont does not want businesses and gainfully employed Vermonters. Vermont wants individuals who are independently wealthy, retired or telecommuting who are happy to support the growing welfare class AND pay outrageous taxes to support an unduly high proportion of state employees in our bloated government. Until or unless that changes, the trend toward fewer "good" jobs will continue.
"The bolded part must be the way that upper management in Lowes sees things. We have a thriving regional chain of building supply stores (which has closed most of its locations in VT) as well as a smaller chain of hardware stores and some scattered ACE hardware building supply stores. This didn't stop Home Depot from putting in a big box store in a town having a population of a little over 10,000. Two years later, a Lowes set up a shop right next door to the Home Depot. It didn't take a Wharton MBA to see that there was not enough buying power to keep all these stores in business. The Lowes closed almost as soon as it was opened. Moral of the story: if you are going to start a business, consider researching consumers and demand. University towns tend to be heavy on bookstores."
That's also because it took nearly four years for that lowes to open as well. I used to work there (not that one) usually a store would take a year to open, not four. At what point is a decision made..if there is nothing there it can be considered not enough to validate opening. If there is too much there it can be saturation and be too competitive.
"Medical devices, autmotive aftermarket parts, contract machining, high end sporting equipment to name just a few items that are manufactured in the region."
Well that whole right to repair concept would help sales with automotive. I don't want to expand on it but basically car companies pretty much force you to go into dealerships if a check engine light goes off. If independent shops cannot fix a car it leads to higher prices.
"Some states try hard to court businesses and others do their best to hound them away. Vermont does not want businesses and gainfully employed Vermonters. Vermont wants individuals who are independently wealthy, retired or telecommuting who are happy to support the growing welfare class AND pay outrageous taxes to support an unduly high proportion of state employees in our bloated government. Until or unless that changes, the trend toward fewer "good" jobs will continue."
Sounds like you know the place. But at what point would enough be enough? i.e. what will be the straw that breaks the camels back?
I wanted to resurrect this thread to continue the conversation instead of starting another one. It has been a long time and a lot has changed and the world is moving. I have attached a Census to show the comparison of New England contenders of a possible move and my home state New Jersey. Vermont is loosing population, I thought that was only in Maine.
That's cool they plow the whole lake, I have only seen small areas to play hockey that get way too crowded.
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