Talk me in or out of moving to VT (Brattleboro in particular) (Burlington: real estate, apartment)
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Sorry for the novel, but hopefully some locals can give me some good insight.
I'm currently living in Oklahoma with my SO and our son. We are looking for a place to move to in the next year and settle, buy a house, grow roots and raise our child. Eventually, we'd like to live as off-the-grid as possible while still being close to a town with good amenities. I've always had this romanticized idea of Vermont (thank you Helen and Scott Nearing) in my head and dreamed of moving there, but I realize that view is not accurate. Also, I've never even been there nor anywhere in the NE. But now as I'm contemplating where we will settle, I'm having a hard time putting Vermont out of my mind. We've had to move around a lot in the last few years, so we want to stay in the next place we move to indefinitely, so this is kinda my last chance to consider all possibilities, at least until our son is grown and out of the house.
I like the rural atmosphere of Oklahoma as well as Kansas where we are from. But we are also very left leaning and non-religious and the political and religious atmosphere here is a little oppressive. I've always wanted to live in a fairly small rural town with low crime and a sense of community, but with less....ya know....Republicans than you'll find in the small towns in the midwest. (Please, no offense Republicans...it's just not as fun being in the very small minority all your life). I also like the idea of having a walkable community with decent city-like amenities like public transit, access to the arts, yoga classes, alternative health providers and a natural foods coop....without the snooty pretentiousness of a lot of liberal cities like, say, Boulder.
Another consideration is that I'm working toward a Bachelors and Masters in Special Education. All the teaching salaries I've come across in Vermont are higher than what I can get in most places that we are thinking about relocating to (NE Arkansas is #1 on the list right now). And the biggest difference is the health insurance. As a teacher in Arkansas, I can look forward to paying over $1200/month for a family insurance plan. From what I've seen online for teaching jobs in VT, I'll pay only about $200 per month for equal insurance.
I realize that the real estate and property taxes are much higher, but from what I'm seeing on Zillow, they don't appear to be more than I'd be willing to pay. Real estate appears really cheap in NE Arkansas, but if we buy a house in a walkable neighborhood (a big priority), we'll be paying housing prices that are comparable to VT. The only difference is about double in property taxes in VT, but we'll still be ahead with the more affordable health insurance.
My biggest worry is actually getting employment though. How likely would it be to find a job as a teacher in one of the larger towns? I realize teacher jobs are hard to get anywhere these days, but does anyone have any idea how hard it is to do so in Vermont right now?
Speaking of the schools, are they any good? If so, in what ways? I would hope they would be good with how much is spent on education in the state!! I know if we move to Arkansas, our son will go to a private Montessori school. We will not be able to afford Montessori school in VT though because tuition is double there.
My SO works in management for WalMart (I know, I know...but that is actually one of the highest paying jobs around here). If we do decide to move, he'll apply for a transfer to a VT store and we will only actually move if he lands one. So his employment will be covered.
Another consideration is housing. Is it really true that we'll probably have zero luck finding a rental, especially in Brattleboro? If SO gets a transfer, we will only have a few weeks notice to find housing and move...is that going to be even remotely possible?
On being a flatlander...is that really something we should worry about if we live in one of the largest towns like Brattleboro? The comments on here about never fitting in do kind of freak me out in that respect. I understand with the small towns because that's how it is in the midwest in small towns, but almost everyone assimilates well in the larger towns/cities around here. I also don't want to worry about changing my midwestern hick accent. I say "ya'll" sometimes without apologies.
The walkscore for Brattleboro is amazing, but walkscores aren't particularly accurate. Is it possible to live carfree in Brattleboro? Is it possible to commute by bus or train to any other city for employment? Or are cars still a necessity?
Can someone give me an idea of how much gas, utilities and groceries actually cost? We average $200 a month to heat or cool our house here (it's old and non insulated well at all). What can we expect in VT? Gas rarely goes over $4/gallon, but I'm sure it's a lot higher in VT. That will be ok if we can replace driving significantly. And how high are staples like eggs, bread, milk, and produce like apples?
As far as the weather...that's something I'm not worried about unless it means I won't be able to afford utilities. I'll just trade unbearably hot weather for unbearably cold weather. And my SO would prefer to move to a much colder climate.
Does Brattleboro sound like a good fit for us or are there other towns we should consider besides Burlington?
Last edited by greenways; 07-02-2012 at 12:40 PM..
Sorry for the novel, but hopefully some locals can give me some good insight.
I'm currently living in Oklahoma with my SO and our son. We are looking for a place to move to in the next year and settle, buy a house, grow roots and raise our child. Eventually, we'd like to live as off-the-grid as possible while still being close to a town with good amenities. I've always had this romanticized idea of Vermont (thank you Helen and Scott Nearing) in my head and dreamed of moving there, but I realize that view is not accurate. Also, I've never even been there nor anywhere in the NE. But now as I'm contemplating where we will settle, I'm having a hard time putting Vermont out of my mind. We've had to move around a lot in the last few years, so we want to stay in the next place we move to indefinitely, so this is kinda my last chance to consider all possibilities, at least until our son is grown and out of the house.
I like the rural atmosphere of Oklahoma as well as Kansas where we are from. But we are also very left leaning and non-religious and the political and religious atmosphere here is a little oppressive. I've always wanted to live in a fairly small rural town with low crime and a sense of community, but with less....ya know....Republicans than you'll find in the small towns in the midwest. (Please, no offense Republicans...it's just not as fun being in the very small minority all your life). I also like the idea of having a walkable community with decent city-like amenities like public transit, access to the arts, yoga classes, alternative health providers and a natural foods coop....without the snooty pretentiousness of a lot of liberal cities like, say, Boulder.
Another consideration is that I'm working toward a Bachelors and Masters in Special Education. All the teaching salaries I've come across in Vermont are higher than what I can get in most places that we are thinking about relocating to (NE Arkansas is #1 on the list right now). And the biggest difference is the health insurance. As a teacher in Arkansas, I can look forward to paying over $1200/month for a family insurance plan. From what I've seen online for teaching jobs in VT, I'll pay only about $200 per month for equal insurance.
I realize that the real estate and property taxes are much higher, but from what I'm seeing on Zillow, they don't appear to be more than I'd be willing to pay. Real estate appears really cheap in NE Arkansas, but if we buy a house in a walkable neighborhood (a big priority), we'll be paying housing prices that are comparable to VT. The only difference is about double in property taxes in VT, but we'll still be ahead with the more affordable health insurance.
My biggest worry is actually getting employment though. How likely would it be to find a job as a teacher in one of the larger towns? I realize teacher jobs are hard to get anywhere these days, but does anyone have any idea how hard it is to do so in Vermont right now?
Speaking of the schools, are they any good? If so, in what ways? I would hope they would be good with how much is spent on education in the state!! I know if we move to Arkansas, our son will go to a private Montessori school. We will not be able to afford Montessori school in VT though because tuition is double there.
My SO works in management for WalMart (I know, I know...but that is actually one of the highest paying jobs around here). If we do decide to move, he'll apply for a transfer to a VT store and we will only actually move if he lands one. So his employment will be covered.
Another consideration is housing. Is it really true that we'll probably have zero luck finding a rental, especially in Brattleboro? If SO gets a transfer, we will only have a few weeks notice to find housing and move...is that going to be even remotely possible?
On being a flatlander...is that really something we should worry about if we live in one of the largest towns like Brattleboro? The comments on here about never fitting in do kind of freak me out in that respect. I understand with the small towns because that's how it is in the midwest in small towns, but almost everyone assimilates well in the larger towns/cities around here. I also don't want to worry about changing my midwestern hick accent. I say "ya'll" sometimes without apologies.
The walkscore for Brattleboro is amazing, but walkscores aren't particularly accurate. Is it possible to live carfree in Brattleboro? Is it possible to commute by bus or train to any other city for employment? Or are cars still a necessity?
Can someone give me an idea of how much gas, utilities and groceries actually cost? We average $200 a month to heat or cool our house here (it's old and non insulated well at all). What can we expect in VT? Gas rarely goes over $4/gallon, but I'm sure it's a lot higher in VT. That will be ok if we can replace driving significantly. And how high are staples like eggs, bread, milk, and produce like apples?
As far as the weather...that's something I'm not worried about unless it means I won't be able to afford utilities. I'll just trade unbearably hot weather for unbearably cold weather. And my SO would prefer to move to a much colder climate.
Does Brattleboro sound like a good fit for us or are there other towns we should consider besides Burlington?
It sounds like many of your wants could be met in Vermont. First, you need to come here to see for yourself if the state is a good fit. To decide on a place to live without ever visiting is very risky. I think you should also visit during the winter to early springtime. Not to see if you could tolerate the cold, but to see if you could envision yourself living or doing activities during that time of year. You need to be able to enjoy the outdoors all year. I look at it from the opposite perspective of living in the south during hot summers. Most of our year is cold and grey. You don't want to cooped up in a house all winter long doing something you could be doing anywhere else, just to say you live in Vermont. I would say avoid summer in Vermont. I say this because they are just about perfect. There is very little wrong with summers in Vermont. The one drawback is they only last 2-3 months, then it gets cold again. You don't wan't "cabin fever."
The other thing you have to have before moving is employment. The education system has been a major focus because of declining student enrollment. Also, concerning the education department. The state has made cuts to the Department of Education trying to balance the state budget. I wouldn't say this is a reason not to pursue moving to Vermont, but be aware that with declining enrollments and our big budget shortcomings, work in the education field is not guaranteed. Our school system just outside of Burlington has cut teacher positions the past two budgets. The quality of the schools is good overall. Our test scores have dropped significantly during the past few years, but the overall education is good. If you look at the individual school rankings in the US, you will not find a Vermont school until almost the 1000th ranking. There are other schools that are better, but the overall combined state education rankings, puts Vermont near the top.
Utilities are near impossible to gauge. If the house is poorly insulated or inefficient, costs will be higher. Cable, electric, etc, are hard to predict as well. It all depends on what you use, what package you have, if you need internet through your cable. One problem in Vermont is there is no competition with many or most utilities. I could tell you my cable/internet/phone bill is just over $200/month through Comcast. I don't know what service Brattleboro uses, but they tend to all have packages that have different requirements. We are sort of stuck with what we have to pay because we can't get a cheaper package that offers high speed internet (without paying extra). The crazy thing is someone down the road could have a different deal through the same company. The majority of homes use oil to heat in the winter. The amount you pay is at the mercy of the price of oil and what you are comfortable keeping the house temperature at.
Housing could be tough, depending on what you need and at what price. Average price calculated for an apartment in the state of Vermont (calculated by VHFA), is about $1000/month. Stay away from Craigslist (major scams running recently). Local papers or possibly some other resources from people local to the area would be the best options.
Off the grid and public transportation in one town? Sorry but unless anyone can correct me, that sounds like an oxymoron. As another poster said you need to visit and see for yourself. There is a walmart in Berlin, VT, (near Montpelier) Williston, VT (near Burlington) Charlestown, NH, Woodsville, NH and West Lebanon, NH. (those NH towns are across the CT river from VT so not a far commute). I am not sure what is on the west side of VT cause I am on the east side. I also think there is one in NH across the river from Brattleboro. I am fixing to get out of VT as soon as I sell my house. My town is approximately 600 folks. Public transportation here consists of riding your bike or driving your car on public roads, lol. Good Luck!
Off the grid and public transportation in one town? Sorry but unless anyone can correct me, that sounds like an oxymoron.
Yeah, that is an oxymoron, isn't it. I should have clarified...not off-the-grid in a bad@ss rural Vermont way, but more of an wimpy "urban homestead" in a net zero house. That's more possible though in a milder climate with a longer growing season. You can't exactly cut your own fire wood when you live on a tiny lot in town and passive solar won't cut it for heat. The off-the-grid thing is not as important as affordable health care and public transit though.
Thanks for the WM info. We will definitely visit this winter if we are still leaning toward a move there.
Here is the opinion of a flatlander who tried exactly what you are trying to do, who's Wife and did the search for education positions, also. DISCLAIMER: This is not meant to offend and based on the Rutland area. Just a story.
We looked in a few places in Vermont before we moved there. We were set on Montpellier but Rutland called and offered my Wife a job first. With education jobs in short supply, we took a chance on Rutland. We visited, spent some time there, said OK. We later left to care for a sick parent in another state, but here are some of our experiences.
No work. Get a job first. This cant be stressed enough. Employers know 'flatlanders' have a high percentage of heading out, so they are reluctant to offer what few jobs they have to non-VT'rs. I lucked into a job at G&E, but that was an anomaly.
Vermont enjoys a perception of being very liberal, when in fact, a lot of the state is Southern conservative in attitudes and non-tolerance. Brattleboro is not one of those areas, though. But, this is in any rural state. Just be aware, the perception is not the reality across the state.
Its an expensive COL state.
People are stoic. That doesn't mean 'mean', that just mean don't expect the Welcome Wagon people to bring you a fruit basket when you move in. No one will really care where you came from, especially if its New York !
You will hear "Flatlander" about 5 times a day.
The winters are brutal. We like the winter, so no big deal for us, but what I wast expecting is how dark it is most of the year. Being dark for large parts of the year is more stress than the temperatures.
You will be tied to your car, so figure in lots of $$$$ for fuel. Remember, the corner store could be 5 miles away.
If you need to fly, airports that do certain types of flights will take some travel to get to.
Some positives:
-Very Safe in most places.
-Slower pace than than the lower, eastern states.
-Great place to raise kids.
-Stunningly beautiful.
-If you hate the way the coastal areas have been destroyed by tacky box stores and development, you will love Vermont.
The reason we moved there was to escape all that stuff, and we got it !
I am not a fan of Rutland after our stay there. But I feel if we stuck it out and waited for an education job in Brattleboro, Burlington or Montpellier to open, we would still be there despite the family stuff. I love Vermont and would live there again if the particulars were in order.
Good luck in future endeavors, whatever you decide.
Politically it sounds like you will fit right in. But the truth is you most likely will never find a job in your field. Maybe the Walmart is hiring.
Burlington is a fantastic small city but very pricey and no jobs. Unless you have unlimited funds and a back up plan I would reconsider.
Come to Bennington! The teaching salaries are not as high as other places, but I too am almost done with my degree in the same field, and there are jobs here for that kind of position. They exist! You need to come here though and read the newsguide or the penny saver, or the bennington banner. There are homes available that are not astronomical and there are places to rent for a decent price. If you can spin it though, I'd recommend buying v renting since home prices are so low now. There are great towns around Bennington, and you would fit right in, so it seems. Hey, let me know if you come, we can get coffee or something. There are great shops downtown, and unlike some of the other places, the supermarkets are in town and you don't have to drive all over the place to get somewhere, and there is a Walmart right in town. I like Brattleboro, dont get me wrong, but I come from NJ, and jeez it reminds me of Princeton or Montclair. Its too trendy and hip, and it seems like a lot of the younger people there are just doing things because they think they are supposed to. Another option you have (although they are not as appealing) is to look in north western Mass and the Hoosick/Cambridge area of NY. They are about 15-20 mins to Bennington and also very nice. Mind NY and MA though, they have high taxes, and weird gun laws. My dad is an NRA instructor in CT and when he drives up to visit me he has to vacuum out his trunk in case some lead spilt from his shells, otherwise he will get in trouble in Mass. Weird?! I dont understand! Go VT!
oh dear god I've lived here for seven years and I'm from one of the flattest states of all. i work with a lot of native Vermonters and I don't think I've heard that word five times since I've been here.
I agree. I've lived and worked in Rutland since 1997, and worked statewide (including the NEK) since 2008. I almost never hear the word "flatlander" -- except on this forum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by quickdraw
oh dear god I've lived here for seven years and I'm from one of the flattest states of all. i work with a lot of native Vermonters and I don't think I've heard that word five times since I've been here.
the only time it comes up is on this forum.
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(Please, no offense Republicans...it's just not as fun being in the very small minority all your life). I also like the idea of having a walkable community with decent city-like amenities like public transit, access to the arts, yoga classes, alternative health providers and a natural foods coop....without the snooty pretentiousness of a lot of liberal cities like, say, Boulder.
The majority of homes use oil to heat in the winter. The amount you pay is at the mercy of the price of oil and what you are comfortable keeping the house temperature at. 
