[harry chickpea]

I also have been around a bit - Vermont, NYC, North Carolina, GA, AL, FL as well as travel to much of the lower 48, Mexico, Canada, Puerto Rico. Each place has its own differences, and even a place a mile from the next town over can have differences in culture and attitude. People are inherently tribal in nature.

"Which reminds me: I did read more history about Vermont, and for one: the stuff about Abenaki Indians ..."

Keep reading. The French and Indian wars and tribal warfare and (in this case to a lesser extent) the British incursions depopulated the thin populations that existed in the area that was to become Vermont. The settlers of Vermont were unusual in that they didn't have to push the natives out when occupying the land grants. That had already happened because of other historical events. That contrasts to the settlement of the coast and of course Andrew Jackson and the despicable "trail of tears." The original Vermonters may have been opportunist and the hippies of the era avoiding the religious dogma of the settled coastal areas, but they were not the usurpers and even killers that were more common in settlement attempts in other areas.

"Vermonters always have had problems with newcomers."

Generally true, but often not problems with the individuals themselves as much as their belief systems and cultures. There was fear of Fenian acting out, and the French, Irish, and Italian all were distrusted as Papists. The long running religious rivalries and wars caused major problems throughout the colonies and New England states in particular. The Great Awakening didn't help matters.

"My family and I never got to open our mouths about "changing their state" {Alabama} before they were publicly humiliating us, not letting us work, destroying our property, killing our pets, kicking us out of public property, trying to stop us from voting; you name it."

The voting remark indicates you may be black? If that is the case then much of the differences in experience may be from racial prejudice and bias, and less about Vermont or any other area. There is no denying the rottenness of prejudiced behavior and the reserve or coldness that exists in people who might not be actively prejudiced but simply unfamiliar and scared of anything or anyone outside of their comfort zone. Vermont was never cosmopolitan and never had the exposure to different cultures that the seaport states did. Rural backwater is not a pejorative when describing the state prior to the railroads, but a fact. That comes through in attitudes even today.

"And I also noticed that, for all the talk about flatlanders, the flatlanders who live there are neither tourists nor rich, but they get all the ire. "

I wonder if you are not overstepping in the heat of the debate. The "ire" I most was witness to were the rants against "trust fund babies" coming in and demanding change and new services, not workers who had come to the state - with the possible exception of if they set up shop in direct competition with a well-liked small town garage owner or such. However, your experience is your own and I respect that.

Good response. Some good points and well presented.

[harry chickpea]

Originally Posted by mrsross1987

The flatlanDer thing is utterly obnoxious. If Vermonters KNEW anything, and drove around New England, it all LOOKS the same, feels the same, and has the SAME people. Massachusetts has Boston, but most of Mass. Looks JUST like Vermont. But Vermont ers think they're so unique and special. They're NOT. Maine, Nh, VT Mass, CT have plenty of country bumping. RI, not as many. Vters have to stop thinking they have the only state with trees, or cows, or farms, they're obnoxious. Most of NE is old and falling apart, and Vt is no different. Get with the times. Vters only wear rose colored glasses , and that's their biggest problem

LOL! Nope. I drove around a lot and Vermont not only looks different, but there is geology that backs up WHY it looks different. Of course if you are sprinting in a car between fast food restaurants you might not notice the differences. Indigestion will do that.

The history of Vermont is MUCH different than the rest of New England, but I don't expect you to know that.

[CatwomanofV]

I have found Vermonters (whether they be native or "flatlanders") to be very nice people for the most part. Of course you have your jerks-they come in every shape, form, color, etc. etc. My husband once had a spun out. The people who were behind him stopped. He didn't have a phone and they were kind enough to let him use their phone so he could call me. Then a guy in a truck stopped and pulled the car out of the ditch.

Another time, he was stopped waiting for his daughter. A little old lady stopped and asked him if he needed any help. My husband laughs at that because he was like, "What could she have done?" But the fact was she stopped.

There was a time when I was in NY and a friend of mine was having an epileptic seizure and fell in the middle of the entrance to the complex we lived in. I couldn't move her so I stood there so no one would run over her and people slowed, look but NOT ONE PERSON STOPPED!!!! She was laying in the middle of road!!!! Of course if they did stop, there wasn't anything they could have done but still... BTW, when she came out of her seizure, we walked home. I think I was shaking worse than she was.


That is the difference between the two states!



Cat

[arctichomesteader]

There are huge differences between Vermont and MA. MA is way more crowded, developed, urbanized, regulated, and has a real rat race mentality. Vermont is more laid back in general, less crowded, less developed, and more free (i.e., I could still build my own home with my own materials in Vermont, plumb and wire it without hiring a licensed contractor, I can hunt on Sundays, I can own and carry a gun without a license, and so forth. You can't even legally replace your own toilet in MA). People are less afraid of each other in Vermont than NY or MA or the Midwest where I'm stuck for a few months this summer and less self-centered, less aggressive on the road, etc.

The "woodchucks" in VT like myself are descended from some of the most rebellious people of New England. Those from other states nearby noticed this. The settlers of VT wanted less interference from the government, organized religion, and so forth. VT was an independent country for about 14 years and in a state of near anarchy before that.

[thunderkat59]

All places gave nice people and undesirable people. I even met nice people in Florida, so I know there are at least 5 or 6
In my short stay in Vermont, I met nice and nasty, just like any other place. All areas have intangible "feels" about them too. Vermont people do not go out of their way to be friendly. Thats not to say they aren't, but it is not like lets say, Kentucky, where people will talk your ear off for any reason at all. The "feel" of the area I lived, RUTland area, was not warm and friendly. Also, I heard "Flatlander" constantly in the 2.5 years we were there. Although I miss a lot about Vermont, I dont miss that provincial mindset and the divide between the "flatlanders" and "woodchucks" one bit.

[CatwomanofV]

Originally Posted by thunderkat59

All places gave nice people and undesirable people. I even met nice people in Florida, so I know there are at least 5 or 6
In my short stay in Vermont, I met nice and nasty, just like any other place. All areas have intangible "feels" about them too. Vermont people do not go out of their way to be friendly. Thats not to say they aren't, but it is not like lets say, Kentucky, where people will talk your ear off for any reason at all. The "feel" of the area I lived, RUTland area, was not warm and friendly. Also, I heard "Flatlander" constantly in the 2.5 years we were there. Although I miss a lot about Vermont, I dont miss that provincial mindset and the divide between the "flatlanders" and "woodchucks" one bit.

I am a "flatlander" and I admit it. I'm also married to a "flatlander" but we met and got married in Vermont. I have lived here for about 25 years now and the only time I really have been called "flatlander" was in jest. I don't think anyone really takes the "flatlander/woodchuck" bit seriously. At least I haven't seen it. The main issue that they have are people who move to the state and try to change it. And you find that everywhere-it just that "Vermontas" have a name for them.

As for the Rutland area, it isn't what I would refer to as one of the best places in Vermont. It has it's moments. But, that being said, Rutland County is home-and I will probably live here for the rest of my life.



Cat

[nice_talker]

Gee guys, as an out-of-stater who's been thinking of moving to VT for a long time now, this whole discussion is kind of off-putting. Even some of you who took issue with the original post said things that suggest people in Vermont have somewhat insular attitudes and aren't friendly to newcomers (flatlanders?!). I'm originally from the Tri-State area but have spent too long a time on the west coast and thought I'd like someplace quieter and greener.
I also spent some time in the deep south, and despite it being a major international destination, the people there were not nice towards outsiders. The overwhelming majority of them had never been outside the region and had no desire to, so while I know what Ugh is talking about.

[Oriz]

Been in Chitty for two years now never ever heard the word flatlander except for on this forum

[thunderkat59]

Originally Posted by Oriz

Been in Chitty for two years now never ever heard the word flatlander except for on this forum

I have heard that before, but that is not my experience. In all fairness, it was never said out of hostility. But I still heard it a lot.

Originally Posted by CatwomanofV

As for the Rutland area, it isn't what I would refer to as one of the best places in Vermont. It has it's moments. But, that being said, Rutland County is home-and I will probably live here for the rest of my life.

Cat

There are a few different Vermont's. When we were in our "research" phase before moving, we looked around Montpellier, Waitsfield and some other "arty" small towns. But, when Rutland called and offered my wife a job in RCSD, we took a chance. I found Rutland to be somewhat depressing and very conservative, much different than the feel we got from Montpellier. We definitely didn't move to change anything. We wanted to escape sprawl and big boxing of the states below VT. We moved to VT for what it was. But, after a while, Rutland seemed like it was a town Bruce Springstein or Tom Waits would sing about. Not saying "bad", just not for us. I feel if we stuck to our plan and stayed in Montpelier or Brattleboro, we would still be there. So, like is usually the case when moves go wrong, it was an "Us" problem, for not researching well enough combined with having unreal expectations. I would live in Vermont again, though, Not something I would say about a few of the other states I have lived.

[mrsross1987]

I have lived and worked in CT, MA, VT , NH and NY. Have visited almost every state, and have lived in several European countries. But I don't expect a know it all Vermont like Harry Chickpea to understand that. Vermont is not ANY different than the rest of NE, but again, Vermonters think they're special and unique. NE is an old falling apart region, and the young are leaving in droves. It's the oldest region, development wise and people wise. Get over yourselves