[AguaDulce]

Originally Posted by nevecappai

Exactly. My questions is why can they not just have respect for others, including their own children? I think thinking rationally is not a prerequisite for being a smoker.

Yes, just like the respect you would show owners of private businesses. Let them decide. The nonsmokers have plenty of places to chose from.

[Oriz]

Originally Posted by nevecappai

This, in my experience, is what most smokers do. Get completely offended when you just try and speak to them about it. Most, again in my experience, aren't rational. I don't know if you are a smoker, sure seems like you are because you act just like all the smokers I know act when confronted. Again, i am assuming.

Indeed, and it is what most addicted people do. Drugs, alcohol, tobacco, doesn't matter, they are all in the same boat. It's one big addiction disease.

[AguaDulce]

Originally Posted by Oriz

Indeed, and it is what most addicted people do. Drugs, alcohol, tobacco, doesn't matter, they are all in the same boat. It's one big addiction disease.

I am not offended. I like debating this issue. It's a very important issue.

[Oriz]

Originally Posted by AguaDulce

soon to come:
in your own car or home if you have pets
sidewalks
everywhere
e-cigs, everywhere


Here's what I propose. Repeal the ban on smoking in bars and let the bar owner chose whether or not to allow smoking. This way you can keep the smoke contained in a small area, thus protecting public safety. (If it's a workplace safety issue for bar staff, the employees would have to sign an affidavit stating that they smoke or are smoke-tolerant.)

Most bars would stay non-smoking.

Oh, really? Some bars don't even honor the laws RIGHT NOW. And before the laws did they allow smoking? Why would they not allow it again AFTER? Do you think they want to lose the business?

Personally I think smoking at home if you have a pet is horrid as well. However, there is not much that can be done. The line has to be drawn somewhere. You said parents that beat their children deserve to have their children taken away from them. Why should the line be drawn where you think it should and not where I think it should? Or anyone else for that matter. The slippery slope concept is just irrelevant here.

[AguaDulce]

Originally Posted by Oriz

Oh, really? Some bars don't even honor the laws RIGHT NOW. And before the laws did they allow smoking? Why would they not allow it again AFTER? Do you think they want to lose the business?

My town has hundreds of bars. The indoor smoking ban went into effect 10 years ago. It took a few months, but eventually all bars became compliant. Since then I have never seen someone smoking inside a bar. And I go to bars quite frequently. We have the luxury of mild weather year-round and many bars have patios. So the smokers hang out outside.

Now there is a proposal to extend the ban to cover patios as well, since it is shared airspace. The smoking can no longer be contained. I propose a repeal of the indoor smoking ban on bars, to address this problem.

An over-whelming majority of bar owners have been pleased to discover that their business did not fail as a result of the ban. There are plenty of non-smoking customers. If they were to go back to allowing smoking, they would likely see a decline in business. Therefore MOST would not convert back. However, there would be a handful that would.

I don't know about your area. How many bars are there, and of that number, how many do not enforce the indoor ban?

Originally Posted by Oriz

Personally I think smoking at home if you have a pet is horrid as well. However, there is not much that can be done. The line has to be drawn somewhere. You said parents that beat their children deserve to have their children taken away from them. Why should the line be drawn where you think it should and not where I think it should? Or anyone else for that matter.

They could just as easily make a law banning smoking in a home if you have pets. What makes you think they wouldn't try?

Originally Posted by Oriz

The slippery slope concept is just irrelevant here.

I totally disagree.

[nevecappai]

We could debate this all day and all night. Where it falls apart to me is where COMMON SENSE does not prevail! Smoking kills. Period. Kill yourself, not others. Especially your innocent children that can't get away from your blatant disrespect of their breathing air and anyone else in the vacinity. If you do something that can harm others, you should be the one that has to take the necessary precautions, the whole world shouldn't have to make changes for you. You want special treatment for your habit. Something that has been abused, has abused the non=smoking public who like to breath clean air and not air riddled with smoke. If you are not SMART enough to not smoke around your children, as it is not their choice, then you should be fined, maybe take some parenting classes, maybe instead of taking the kids away a part of the fine is to treat people who have lung cancer from second-hand smoke or smokers themselves who are now ill. However, you smokers should be the ones put out and inconvenienced because you are the one that choose to do something that can cause harm to others.

[AguaDulce]

Originally Posted by nevecappai

If you are not SMART enough to not smoke around your children, as it is not their choice, then you should be fined, maybe take some parenting classes, maybe instead of taking the kids away a part of the fine is to treat people who have lung cancer from second-hand smoke or smokers themselves who are now ill. However, you smokers should be the ones put out and inconvenienced because you are the one that choose to do something that can cause harm to others.

This could easily lead to laws against other bad parenting behaviors. And so on.
And it could also lead to children being taken from their parents.
And pets being taken away from their owners.

I'm glad I wasn't taken away from my parents.
And I'm glad I still have my dog.

[GJJG2012]

Yes, cannabis is death-free.

Originally Posted by FrugalYankee

They can't get a handle on serious crime so the Vermont legislature is turning ordinary citizens with poor judgment into criminals they can target more easily.

On the lighter side, the same legislature voted to decriminalize marijuana, so maybe a joint would be acceptable.

[GJJG2012]

I don't think everyone is against them & they are doing nothing wrong goes together.

Originally Posted by Oriz

Smokers. Everyone is against them, nobody understands them, we're trying to take away their freedoms, they are doing nothing wrong, etc etc.

[GJJG2012]

Why does someone say it's OK if they die from drinking but not cigarettes?

Originally Posted by AguaDulce

The indoor smoking ban went into effect 10 years ago. It took a few months, but eventually all bars became compliant. We have the luxury of mild weather year-round and many bars have patios. So the smokers hang out outside.

Now there is a proposal to extend the ban to cover patios as well. The smoking can no longer be contained. I propose a repeal of the indoor smoking ban on bars, to address this problem.