[timberline742]

Originally Posted by VT'ah

Put yourself in their shoes...would you want to move somewhere everyone was different than you? second, there is no work for them in vermont, and no social programs to support their lifestyle...plus it is cold...

[urbo2705]

Most African Americans still live in the South, and the vast majority are descendants of slaves. Consider the relatively large plantations in the south, where tobacco and cotton were the king and Queen of the southern economy. Those are backbreaking crops to grow and harvest, unlike apples, hay, and dairy products, which are the staples of VT agriculture.

A farmer in VT wouldn't have needed slaves because there's a lot less hard toil to be done to make a living based on our limited crops and poor soil. Many farmers were eking out their survival based on the work of their own families, and could not afford slaves (a very expensive investment, God help me for phrasing it that way)

Finally, there's not a large group of anybody in Vermont. Our total population is 625,000 and even though we have a service economy today, our high cost of living is not matched by wages, and we sadly don't have cultural fixtures that would convince more people of color to come here.

[harry chickpea]

Originally Posted by urbo2705

Most African Americans still live in the South, and the vast majority are descendants of slaves. Consider the relatively large plantations in the south, where tobacco and cotton were the king and Queen of the southern economy. Those are backbreaking crops to grow and harvest, unlike apples, hay, and dairy products, which are the staples of VT agriculture.

A farmer in VT wouldn't have needed slaves because there's a lot less hard toil to be done to make a living based on our limited crops and poor soil. Many farmers were eking out their survival based on the work of their own families, and could not afford slaves (a very expensive investment, God help me for phrasing it that way)

Finally, there's not a large group of anybody in Vermont. Our total population is 625,000 and even though we have a service economy today, our high cost of living is not matched by wages, and we sadly don't have cultural fixtures that would convince more people of color to come here.

Those first two paragraphs are not historically correct.

First, after the war there were huge migrations of blacks from the rural south to Memphis and then up the Mississippi to Chicago and Detroit. Later migrations out of the rural areas went to other northern industrial areas as well, including Pennsylvania, New York, and so on. Those didn't hit Vermont equally because of the lack of industry in the state. The migration of working class to factory jobs went across all races. Business looked for cheap labor and in general the larger businesses didn't care what color it was. The forced integration by factory work led to some nasty events. Also, look up the history of Liberia to find where some of the black population of America ended up.

Second, ALL agricultural work prior to mechanization and the introduction of engines was backbreaking. The difference was the scale of the land grants and purchases, in particular by the French. A section is 640 acres, and a single person owning an section or more was common in the south. In Vermont, a farm of 80 acres was huge. Large farms need only a minority of people with brains at the top, and LOTS of labor that is best kept uneducated. It made no major difference if it was tenant farmers, slaves, or freemen employees. In fact, tenant farmers were cheaper than slaves and much less of a risk. The real advantage that slavery offered was stability of the work force and the ability to "grow" it to fit the needs of the plantation/farm. Just as businesses today employ more part time workers to cut benefits, slavery was doomed anyway as a business model. People are more expensive to keep than machines, and machines need more educated people to operate and maintain them.

[BS Walks]

Originally Posted by arctichomesteader

History and our economy. There were never many blacks in New England historically. Our economy offers little for those who may move here.

The border is guarded now in Derby. Homeland security has successfully divided neighbors and families with their fascist rules. Don't get caught crossing the street without going to customs, and don't go out the wrong door of the library either...

Ah yes. It's the Federal government's fault that Vermont is a provincial place whose populace offers a chilly reception to outsiders who do not look and/or behave like they do. The government keeps blacks out of Vermont because the only way they could move in, is through the Canadian border. LOL. Vermont isn't quite the open friendly place that its political reputation would lead people to believe.

[urbo2705]

Originally Posted by harry chickpea

Those first two paragraphs are not historically correct.

First, after the war there were huge migrations of blacks from the rural south to Memphis and then up the Mississippi to Chicago and Detroit. Later migrations out of the rural areas went to other northern industrial areas as well, including Pennsylvania, New York, and so on. Those didn't hit Vermont equally because of the lack of industry in the state. The migration of working class to factory jobs went across all races. Business looked for cheap labor and in general the larger businesses didn't care what color it was. The forced integration by factory work led to some nasty events. Also, look up the history of Liberia to find where some of the black population of America ended up.

Second, ALL agricultural work prior to mechanization and the introduction of engines was backbreaking. The difference was the scale of the land grants and purchases, in particular by the French. A section is 640 acres, and a single person owning an section or more was common in the south. In Vermont, a farm of 80 acres was huge. Large farms need only a minority of people with brains at the top, and LOTS of labor that is best kept uneducated. It made no major difference if it was tenant farmers, slaves, or freemen employees. In fact, tenant farmers were cheaper than slaves and much less of a risk. The real advantage that slavery offered was stability of the work force and the ability to "grow" it to fit the needs of the plantation/farm. Just as businesses today employ more part time workers to cut benefits, slavery was doomed anyway as a business model. People are more expensive to keep than machines, and machines need more educated people to operate and maintain them.

Our two arguments are not as mutually exclusive as you seem to conclude. Most black people do still live in the South. Even though Upstate NY has a long industrial past, the region remained, and to a large extent, still is very racially homogeneous. I think a lot of black people would not have been willing to come up to our cold climate and expensive cost of living, where there would not be the same sense of togetherness they had in the South.

It would really be hard to move up here and start from scratch if you are alone or have nobody to help you out. VT never attracted many people at all.

[harry chickpea]

Part of our difference comes from what might seem a hair splitting. You state that most blacks still live in the South. In one sense that is true. However, the implication that blacks stayed in place and rural is not. At the end of the war, Florida only had a total recorded population (all souls) of less than a quarter million and the whole megalopolis from Palm Beach south did not exist. Florida now has about 3.5 million blacks, some of whom are Haitian and other islanders, and huge urban populations as opposed to rural. New York has a larger black population than Texas, and Louisiana and Mississippi are only 12th and 18th in number of black residents, which shoots holes in the " majority stayed in place and rural" idea.

"Upstate" for those not familiar with the regionalism refers to anywhere in New York north of Yonkers. I think you will find the north Adirondack region less homogenous than Albany, Syracuse, Buffalo and other upstate industrial areas even though the climates are comparable to Vermont and the Adirondacks.

While our arguments are not completely exclusive, I submit that mine are closer to the actual historical events and provide a more accurate representation of why the black population in Vermont was as small as it was in the 1900s.

[workitoutnow]

I'd be willing to bet that Ageism is way more of a problem in the Software Industry in Vermont, than Racism. Take a good walk around Dealer.com or MyWebGrocer and see what I mean. If you're older and you want more money than a starting salary, pretty much forget it. MWG is better than Dealer, but they're both bad.

As far as the person talking about IBM as a "Tech Job," alot of those eliminated jobs are nothing more than factory jobs. That's most of what they do over there anyway. Not a very transferable skill.

Vermont has an educated workforce that is willling to work for less money, in order to live a certain "lifestyle."

[urbo2705]

Vermont has an educated workforce that is willling to work for less money, in order to live a certain "lifestyle."

I would definitely agree with this. VT education is generally of a high quality, we don't pinch pennies when it comes to schooling! Of course the downside of that is our colleges are among the most expensive in the world. Elite schools like Middlebury and Bennington are upwards of $50k a year!

The cost of living in this state is a huge and complex political issue and it just gets worse every year. Case in point ; Burlington is a small city and yet, a 1br apartment can't be had for less than $1,200 a month! Only Boston has a pricier real estate market in New England.

This is a huge reason why VT doesn't attract a lot of people of any color. There are many more affordable places to live with a better jobs outlook

[BS Walks]

Originally Posted by urbo2705

Vermont has an educated workforce that is willling to work for less money, in order to live a certain "lifestyle."

Which lifestyle is that?

Originally Posted by urbo2705

VT education is generally of a high quality, we don't pinch pennies when it comes to schooling! Of course the downside of that is our colleges are among the most expensive in the world. Elite schools like Middlebury and Bennington are upwards of $50k a year!

I'm trying to figure out how you have drawn the line between costs of certain education and its quality or how elite private schools that happen to be situated in VT are reflective of the quality of VT education or the value the people of the state place on education. Also, people pay a lot of money for Phillips Andover too, but I wouldn't say that Philips Andover is representative of the quality of education across Massachusetts. And most students who attend those private boarding schools go there to attend school, then they leave.

Originally Posted by urbo2705

The cost of living in this state is a huge and complex political issue and it just gets worse every year. Case in point ; Burlington is a small city and yet, a 1br apartment can't be had for less than $1,200 a month! Only Boston has a pricier real estate market in New England.

There are complexities for sure, but at the end of the day higher housing costs boil down to supply versus demand. If more people choosing to live in a specific Metropolitan Statistical Area outnumber the the units of housing available, then costs go up. As you move out of the Burlington area, rents drop significantly. [/quote]

Originally Posted by urbo2705

This is a huge reason why VT doesn't attract a lot of people of any color. There are many more affordable places to live with a better jobs outlook

So your argument is that the bulk of blacks need subsidized or affordable housing? I assure you that there are lots of blacks out there making good money who aren't living in Vermont for reasons other than lack of affordable housing.

[mels]

Originally Posted by VT'ah

no social programs to support their lifestyle.

Do tell, what social programs support "their" lifestyle?