[Sun Thinker]

The world generally ignores those that walk around whining with both hands out. I know people in their 20's and 30's that have dug themselves out of holes and are far better for it. There's always been a tough road out there, and many just prepare better. Sometimes it's bad luck, sometimes motivation is needed. A lot of today's problems can also be traced to parents and their constant need to shelter their kids from reality. There are also those kids in bad realities, and no parental sheltering or mentoring.

I still see some in their 20's standing on street corners, on a phone, during the day. Others stay inside, and whine all day.

[arctichomesteader]

Originally Posted by GeoffD

This is total nonsense. Look at the per-pupil spending in any failed southern New England school system. It blows away what any other nation in the world spends. This is not a money problem, it's a cultural problem. The United States has about 20% of its population mired in a permanent underclass. Unless you want to rip those children away from their homes (typically, single mother homes), flinging money at it isn't going to solve the problem. It's bad parenting that makes for failed school systems and the perpetual cycle of poverty, not lack of resources.

No, those other nations don't prostitute themselves out to corporations and allow them to offshore freely, treat workers like wage slaves, etc. That's the cultural difference.

[GeoffD]

Originally Posted by arctichomesteader

No, those other nations don't prostitute themselves out to corporations and allow them to offshore freely, treat workers like wage slaves, etc. That's the cultural difference.

Let's introduce some facts here instead of unsubstantiated rhetoric. Median household income in the United States based on purchasing power parity ranks #6 behind Luxembourg, Norway, Sweden, Australia, and Denmark. In terms of median disposable income, the United States is #4 behind Luxembourg, Norway, and Switzerland. The United States has a permanent underclass problem. The rest of the country is doing extremely well by global standards.

Europe has a worse offshoring problem than the United States. Their unit labor costs are higher without any increase in productivity. The US has an $11K higher per-capita GDP than Europe. German factory jobs have a total burdened cost of $45/hour versus $35 in the US. France is $40. Sweden is $50. Norway is $63. Other than the highest skill manufacturing, those jobs have been pushed to eastern Europe where costs are lower. If you look at the economic trends in Europe, they face some enormous problems funding their social programs. France is on the fast track to be the next Greece. Their exports went from 7% of world exports in 1999 to 3% today. French government spending is an astounding 57% of GDP. The whole thing is about to collapse.

You can't get in the DeLorean with the Flux Capacitor, get to 88 mph, and go back to 1950. The post WW II world where the United States was 50% of the world economy and unskilled factory jobs paid middle class wages is gone forever. The internet and cheap transportation have enabled an Asian sitting in a grass hut competitive with an American. That ship has sailed.

[arctichomesteader]

Originally Posted by GeoffD

Let's introduce some facts here instead of unsubstantiated rhetoric. Median household income in the United States based on purchasing power parity ranks #6 behind Luxembourg, Norway, Sweden, Australia, and Denmark. In terms of median disposable income, the United States is #4 behind Luxembourg, Norway, and Switzerland. The United States has a permanent underclass problem. The rest of the country is doing extremely well by global standards.

Europe has a worse offshoring problem than the United States. Their unit labor costs are higher without any increase in productivity. The US has an $11K higher per-capita GDP than Europe. German factory jobs have a total burdened cost of $45/hour versus $35 in the US. France is $40. Sweden is $50. Norway is $63. Other than the highest skill manufacturing, those jobs have been pushed to eastern Europe where costs are lower. If you look at the economic trends in Europe, they face some enormous problems funding their social programs. France is on the fast track to be the next Greece. Their exports went from 7% of world exports in 1999 to 3% today. French government spending is an astounding 57% of GDP. The whole thing is about to collapse.

You can't get in the DeLorean with the Flux Capacitor, get to 88 mph, and go back to 1950. The post WW II world where the United States was 50% of the world economy and unskilled factory jobs paid middle class wages is gone forever. The internet and cheap transportation have enabled an Asian sitting in a grass hut competitive with an American. That ship has sailed.

The wealth disparity makes the statistics deceptive. You can have a lot of people making below subsistence wages and a small number making millions and billions and come out with deceptive stats that make it look good. Statistics can say what you want them to.


We don't need to stand idly by and allow corporations to offshore in order to exploit near-slave labor. Imports from countries with significantly lower wages, worker rights, human rights, and environmental protections should be either banned outright or taxed so high no one buy them. We're slowly devolving back to the early years of the industrial age in terms of wealth distribution and rights.

[GeoffD]

Originally Posted by arctichomesteader

The wealth disparity makes the statistics deceptive. You can have a lot of people making below subsistence wages and a small number making millions and billions and come out with deceptive stats that make it look good. Statistics can say what you want them to.

What part of "median" don't you understand?

[arctichomesteader]

Originally Posted by GeoffD

What part of "median" don't you understand?

I fully understand statistics. You're ignoring the fact that they can be deceptive. Calculate the median of this list of numbers: 100,1000,10000,30000,100000,1000000,100000000,1000 00000000

It's 65,000. Yet there's no one in the median there, it's all either very low numbers (think in terms of dollars) or very high.

[cgregor]

I think that 65,000 is the mean-- the average-- of all those numbers.

Median is the midway point--the point at which half the population makes more and half makes less. Because of the way a population is distributed, the mean will always be higher, and as is pointed out, it is deceptive. The media is fond of reporting income averages by quintile, and in 2005 the mean (average) of the top quintile was $150,000. However, we know that the top 3.6% or so earns 40% of ALL the income, so you can see how misleading it is to report income distribution by mean rather than median.

[GeoffD]

Originally Posted by arctichomesteader

I fully understand statistics. You're ignoring the fact that they can be deceptive. Calculate the median of this list of numbers: 100,1000,10000,30000,100000,1000000,100000000,1000 00000000

It's 65,000. Yet there's no one in the median there, it's all either very low numbers (think in terms of dollars) or very high.

I'm LOL at this one. So you clearly have no clue what "median" means. Why am I not surprised.

[arctichomesteader]

The mean is the sum (100101141100) divided by 8, which is 12512642637.5

My median above is correct. I used excel but you can also use any online math calculator to check. Here's one of many available: Mean, Mode, Median, Quartile Calculator that shows steps

I'm thinking you're upset geoffd that someone showed how deceptive those stats you cite can be. How about we exclude the income of the top earners and see the real picture for the average person in America.

[GeoffD]

Originally Posted by arctichomesteader

The mean is the sum (100101141100) divided by 8, which is 12512642637.5

My median above is correct. I used excel but you can also use any online math calculator to check. Here's one of many available: Mean, Mode, Median, Quartile Calculator that shows steps

I'm thinking you're upset geoffd that someone showed how deceptive those stats you cite can be. How about we exclude the income of the top earners and see the real picture for the average person in America.

Let's try this again using little words with very few syllables so maybe you can understand it.

The census bureau tells us there are 132 million households in the United States.

The census bureau tells us that the median household income in the United States is $53,046

This means that there are 66 million households making more than $53,046 and 66 million households making less than $53,046.

So the median household earns $53,046. That is solidly middle class. You can easily qualify for a $200K mortgage. Half the country is doing better than that.