Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
wow if you read this forum you would think vermont is hell on earth. I have never seen so many people disparage the place they live. I read city-data for different places and without a doubt this one is the most negative.
I have family in the Rutland area and I consider Vermont a second home, I am from the Western New York area. I really make me sad to read all the things people hate about Vermont. I hope peolple are posting all this crap cause becuase they want to keep Vermont true to it's roots, however I get the feeling that this is doom and gloom mindset is how people really think.
I have lived in the sunbelt of everyone person for themselves and government could care less about you and quite honsetly I find Vermont's citizens first approach refreshing.
So please if you hate it so much move to this job rich, warm weather, and little government involvement states becuase you will see all about those "great schools, crime rate, and citizen frindly laws." LOL Please let other who are interested in moving to Vermont get honest answers here with the good and bad to make sound choices not negative trolls like most of you are.
I think that what you find here, like in most places, is a vocal minority. There are many, many, many, many people that are very happy here (myself included). I think its just human nature for people to want to "vent" about things if they are unhappy about something whereas people who are happy just plod along. The reason I am here is that I love this state-its history, its geography, its people, etc. and want to share information for people who are seeking it. Vermont is not perfect (no place is), but it's right for me.
wow if you read this forum you would think vermont is hell on earth. I have never seen so many people disparage the place they live. I read city-data for different places and without a doubt this one is the most negative.
I agree! It is exactly that negativity that led me to take a break from this forum for several months. I'm not talking about people who simply share their own experiences and feelings. Rather, it's those who think their reality is THE reality (as if!), label Vermonters and others, and paint everyone in broad strokes of stereotypes and name-calling. I really didn't enjoy spending time on this forum with those fun-sponges.
Still, there are also many kind and thoughtful people here who seem to enjoy their lives and come to the forum with a spirit of sharing and helping. I agree with our excellent Moderator VTER that the negative vocal minority does not necessarily represent how people are here, but merely how some people communicate in a mostly-anonymous online forum.
I'm a South Florida native and while I love my family in FL, the place never felt like home to me. Instead of complaining, I did what I needed to get out. That was nearly 30 years ago. While life in VT is not perfect (what is?) I love it here. I am happy to live here and be part of the community working for positive change, because even the best places can be much, much better and have major unmet needs.
It's too bad some feel an oppressive atmosphere of negativity exists in the Vt forums. Sure, there have been a few posters over time who had some harsh critique on issues concerning Vermont, myself included, but I appreciate the positive aspects of life here as well. The great benefit of such a website as City Data is that it is a "forum" for the reporting and exchange of views, opinion, experiences, and perceptions. Sorry if the tone and tenor does not represent a 24/7 happy channel, but at least by getting information be it positive or negative it gives people inquiring about Vermont an incentive to do more research on topics mentioned to either validate or disprove facts and opinions. I like to read for knowledge and then based on the information gathered I'll come up with a conclusion. Being fed a very rigid diet is unhealthy and I am sure there are people who are researching and planning moves to Vermont or any other locations for that matter actually appreciate hearing the great along with the not so great. Like the saying goes ". . . your mileage may vary."
The great benefit of such a website as City Data is that it is a "forum" for the reporting and exchange of views, opinion, experiences, and perceptions. Sorry if the tone and tenor does not represent a 24/7 happy channel, but at least by getting information be it positive or negative it gives people inquiring about Vermont an incentive to do more research on topics mentioned to either validate or disprove facts and opinions.
I agree with all of that. I'm not talking about people who express their realities that happen to be negative or painful. I don't show up at any 24/7 happy channels. I'm referring to negative name-calling and stereotyping (which I don't believe I've heard you do, flu189), which to me have no place in respectful discussion.
To me, generalizations and proclamations seem to shut down diversity of expression and opinion. Critical thinking includes seeing all sides of life, pleasant and unpleasant. It also means owning that any statement being made is mostly about the person making it and their own experiences, and is not a proclamation of some objective truth that others are supposed to swallow just 'cos someone said so.
I learn the most from people whose viewpoints differ from mine, and I've learned the most from the difficult experiences I've had (the easy ones required little of me). All of that can be discussed intelligently and respectfully without calling anyone names or generalizing about groups.
I think that what you find here, like in most places, is a vocal minority. There are many, many, many, many people that are very happy here (myself included). I think its just human nature for people to want to "vent" about things if they are unhappy about something whereas people who are happy just plod along. The reason I am here is that I love this state-its history, its geography, its people, etc. and want to share information for people who are seeking it. Vermont is not perfect (no place is), but it's right for me.
I have a comment in response to the first poster, who seems to believe in that old saw "If you don't like it, leave." You got your wish with me. As a native of the state for at least seven generations back, I had to leave primarily because of not being able to find work, the cold winters, and the effects of SADS. To elucidate, if you have problems in those three areas, it is very difficult to be positive, no matter how gushing the people around you might be, or how beautiful the scenery is during those few hours of the winter when there is light. Be thankful you do not have those issues, and have some respect for those that do.
Having left the state, and resolving those problems, I visited a couple of times after about twenty years. As the saying goes, you can't go home. The open fields of my youth were largely filled with goldenrod and scrub, traffic on rte 100 was oppressive, and prices were high enough that I began to feel that same old money crunch that was instrumental in my earlier dismay about the state. I also rediscovered how cold houses were kept in the winter, to the point of physical pain, in homeowner efforts to conserve fuel. Some people can live like that and be happy. I cannot.
The changes to Burlington, where the manufacturing and business strip of Pine Street was "cleaned up" and removed of its vitality made me feel that a core of the city was gone. I remember it with boxcars spotted in front of businesses, and constantly having to drive around loading trucks. The loss of that and just about all of the working farms felt like a chopping off of my roots and of the legs of the Vermont economy of my childhood. The increased "touristification" of towns like Stowe and Jeffersonville gave me a feeling like a resurrected resident of the Plymouth colonies might experience when visiting Plymouth Plantation. I recognized the places, but not the spirit. The iconic experiences of my youth were no longer possible, the structures repurposed and any history connected to them reduced to so much cardboard and tiny photo galleries.
Does my experience make me a "Negative Nancy" or a pragmatist? Could it be that the "NNs" on this forum might actually have a point? As much as the old state of Vermont will always be in my blood, I have come to realize that state is long dead and gone, and that a playground for the trust babies and eco-zealots has been overlaid on its bones.
As you know, I can relate more history and detail of central Vermont than just about anyone on the forum, and probably most residents of the state. I love and appreciate the way it was that much, and I have researched that deeply. That doesn't stop me from voicing my opinions about the current state of the state, nor does it somehow invalidate my posts as just more negativity. If you see me as a vocal minority, I feel the need to remind you that true Vermonters ARE a vocal minority, and their being able to go against the flow has served them well, from Ethan and Ira, to Dewey, through a couple of Presidents, and a distinguished senatorial delegation.
I now live in an area that is closer in use and spirit to the Vermont of my youth than Vermont itself. The fields here are neat and crops well maintained, the taxes are low, the people form true communities, Sunday is a day of rest, high school sports are well attended, and you can get a plate lunch for about $5. Is it perfect? Of course not. Does it feel really good, and a lot like the rural Vermont of my youth? Hell, yes.
I had to leave primarily because of not being able to find work, the cold winters, and the effects of SADS. <snip> Be thankful you do not have those issues, and have some respect for those that do.
I am grateful not to suffer from those very real hardships, and I'm terribly sorry it turned out that way for you. I'm glad you found a place that meets your needs financially, gives you the additional sunshine you need, and offers the old-timey feel you so enjoy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by harry chickpea
The increased "touristification" of towns like Stowe and Jeffersonville gave me a feeling like a resurrected resident of the Plymouth colonies might experience when visiting Plymouth Plantation. I recognized the places, but not the spirit.
This is a very clear and very sad analogy. I wouldn't like seeing that either. I finally stopped visiting family in Florida (since I've just as easily been able to see them elsewhere) because of the choking traffic and (worse) the roads I used to drive through endless miles of swamp and bay having been developed into bland strip malls, rendering the place identical to, well, just about anywhere with strip malls.
Quote:
Originally Posted by harry chickpea
Does my experience make me a "Negative Nancy" or a pragmatist? Could it be that the "NNs" on this forum might actually have a point?
Not to me! You're describing your experience, and the observations you've made in your time in VT and elsewhere. I value this input and very much appreciate the historical & cultural perspective you offer.
I don't know about the OP, but to me the "NN"s that led me to leave the forum for a time offer proclamations, generalizations, and stereotypes instead of (or sometimes in addition to) their own experiences. If I was speaking with someone in person and they talked that way, I'd let them know I was uncomfortable. If they continued, I would excuse myself and likely not seek out their company.
I sometimes wonder if the relative anonymity of internet boards leads people to behave in ways they simply would not if they were, for example, conversing with people in public. Or maybe the people I've encountered in person are just somehow more polite than the few stereotyping ones I'm encountering on this and other internet boards. Since folks tend to be just folks wherever I've been (Vermont, NY, FL, Canada, Europe, etc.) I tend to think it's the former I certainly could be wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by harry chickpea
That doesn't stop me from voicing my opinions about the current state of the state, nor does it somehow invalidate my posts as just more negativity.
Exactly. Negativity doesn't invalidate posts. Name-calling and other forms of rudeness that would cause any kindergartner to be reprimanded doesn't so much invalidate posts, as turn me off from wanting to hear anything the poster says.
Last edited by Sherylcatmom; 09-12-2008 at 11:27 AM..
What Sheryl said. I couldnt agree with what she wrote more.
Harry..where in VT did you grow up and where are you now?
I come from a long line of folks from the Kingdom and Franklin County-I grew up in the Kingdom. To me it still feels like the "old Vermont".
Excellent replies and perspective. It is truly important to be able to understand and respect the perspectives of those who have decades of experience and memories of Vermont. It's so true that you can't go home anymore. With changing times and pressures life sure does present challenges. I really value the simpler aspects and that is why I can come out very critically when I see what I deem to be absolute fiscal irresponsibility. What really torques me is when I see long time residents who are being put through the financial grinder to satisfy special interests. Not only does it hurt them, but it diminishes the capability of younger folks who really want to make a go of it here for the positive attributes of life here to be able to grow and expand their lives. Myself, I am not looking for a free lunch, and I sure don't want to billed to provide one for anyone else either. The current downturn in the economy may actually have a benefit as I know quite a few people who now are starting to question the why and hows on how our local and state tax dollars are spent and this may end up being a reality check for some in office who have become accustomed to blank checks. In conclusion, some of the best managers and commanders in the service I ever had did not want to hear the standard what is so great line from bobble head yes men, but rather, demanded to know what was deficient, wasteful, and wrong, because that was the only true way to address problems and get them fixed.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
You got your wish with me. As a native of the state for at least seven generations back, I had to leave primarily because of not being able to find work, the cold winters, and the effects of SADS. To elucidate, if you have problems in those three areas, it is very difficult to be positive, no matter how gushing the people around you might be, or how beautiful the scenery is during those few hours of the winter when there is light. Be thankful you do not have those issues, and have some respect for those that do.
I also rediscovered how cold houses were kept in the winter, to the point of physical pain, in homeowner efforts to conserve fuel. Some people can live like that and be happy. I cannot.
I recognized the places, but not the spirit. The iconic experiences of my youth were no longer possible, the structures repurposed and any history connected to them reduced to so much cardboard and tiny photo galleries.
The fields here are neat and crops well maintained, the taxes are low, the people form true communities, Sunday is a day of rest, high school sports are well attended, and you can get a plate lunch for about $5. 
