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Sorry... me and my old-fashioned ways. It's just that I think of women as fellow human beings, not servile curvy pillows for jizzing on... which is exactly what entertainment products like DOA beach volleyball teach young impressionable males and gives Japan their generally false pervy reputation.
And you play videogames?
Name me 5 female lead or support characters from videogames that are not servile, or eye candy, or a plot device to start a quest (don't look them up anywhere, I want 5 off the top of your head).
I mean really, look at most games, Medieval themed RPG's mans armour gets bigger and bulkier as it increases in protection, womens gets smaller and more revealing (in general), I mean a couple of pasties and a clam brief must be armor class 1000 and swords and arrows just bounce off breast tissue.
At least Team Ninja are honest that their female characters are nothing more than eyecandy, rather than most other game developers who are placing female characters purely to provide titillation with a patina of plausible deniability (but not actually plausibly deniable when you look a little deeper, the word incidental is not in the gamedev's vocabulary). You're not telling me that Ivy from Soulcaliber is not there as titillation (and I use the word advisedly). Even when women are in videogames and are not solely for artistic purposes (but have you seen any female character in a videogame that is not old, that is not attractive in some way, from cute and quirky to supermodel) most actually are appearing as women, I don't mean that as a good thing, I mean the entire role they're playing is "the woman", if not that trope then something common like the idealist, the healer, the world weary and sarcastic, the kid sister, the evil seductress.
If you consider women as fellow human beings and base that on any videogame (regardless of title, genre, or developer) you're in for a really rude surprise. I mean if you're going to take exception to Team Ninja's breast physics, you really need to take exception to Quiet's underboob and cleavage in MGSV: The Phantom Pain, because she was there to poke fun at people like Team Ninja, honest, Kojima said so and she breathes through her skin so needs it exposed, but apparently not too exposed, because... Reasons (like an ESRB rating), and it had nothing to do with breast physics, or selling millions of figures to crazy MGS fans, yeah, bridge in Brooklyn going for sale too.
I mean even people like BioWare who are about the most balanced developers for Male/Female game play still have some way to go in the presentation of gender equality, can we say Miranda Lawson? The Hot Boss ice queen with a heart of gold with cheesewire underwear (and romance option)? How many times have we seen that one... or a variation of it. While we're at it, isn't there some rule about fraternization between senior officers too? And isn't there a chance that sexual harassment laws will still exist? While I'm at the font of BioWare why is Wynn about 90 but with the body of a teenager? And why do Asari breasts grow thoughout their lifetimes (as discussed in ME3 between Liara and her father [Matriarch Aethyta], and Ken Donnelly and Gabriella Daniels)? Don't get me wrong BioWare have produced some great games and are at the bleeding edge for gender roles in videogames, but they do on occasion fall prey to the typical VG schtick.
On this subject, it doesn't just apply to women in Videogames either, have you seen the physical dimensions of a character like Kratos from God of War? He has IIRC a 48" chest, and a 20" waist, because that's completely representative of natural human proportions isn't it? People do have 48" chests, and people do have 20" waists, but not normally on the same person, at the same time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango
In other words, it's just fine that we aren't getting this game and the developers were correct for assuming it would not fly well here.
Yeah, this is the old, I don't mind people watching things/playing games that I happen to approve of, but don't want people watching things/playing games I don't approve of.
I personally don't care what people do playing video games, or why they play them in the first place, I mean do you think it's possible that people are carefully positioning Evie Frye into locations that appear sexual for their own gratification? I don't think it's possible I think it's probable, and that's a AAA title with a relatively powerful lead character (although I think it's ironic that Evie is the stealthy one, and Jacob is the brawler, because that's not playing to a stereotype at all, is it). There is no control on how someone will play a game, so even the most "innocent" games can lead to situations where the characters can appear to be in sexual positions, and people are going to find those, and probably post them to YouTube.
So in summation, yes Team Ninja are probably producing offensive content to some people, but VG's still have a long, long way to go to be truly representative of people, maybe they never will be, and most VG's commonly contain content that can be considered offensive and it's not incidental (remember incidental isn't in a gamedev's vocabulary) it may be an oversight, or a mistake, but not incidental. One thing I will say is that at least Team Ninja are being honest and not making any claims about their game that it is anything but what they say it is.
Koei Tecmo never had any intention of shipping this game over to the West because not too many people cared about this game to begin with. This announcement is getting the game the attention it was never going to receive.
Name me 5 female lead or support characters from videogames that are not servile, or eye candy, or a plot device to start a quest (don't look them up anywhere, I want 5 off the top of your head)...
You make it sound hard.
How about:
Ciri (Witcher 3)... yeah she's not hard on the eyes but she's not dressed ridiculously skanky (especially compared to Geralt's potential love interests in the game), is strong and independent, does 0 sexual things during the course of the game and is even the only female character who has her boobs covered (with a bandage due to an injury) when her shirt comes off in only one small part of the game. Hard to feel sexual feelings for the character though since she is essentially sold to the player as a daughter character and elicits feelings to match.
Ellie (The Last of Us)... a young woman but again, not a sexual or servile character at all.
Faith (Mirror's edge)... again, strong female protagonist, no sex and you don't even see her much since you play her and it's 1st person only.
Konoko (Oni)... a Bungie oldie, basically a Major Motoko (Ghost in the Shell) clone but without the eye candy. Another strong willed female main character. The anime art cover sells the character in typical sexy fashion but the game itself goes an entirely different direction.
Tiny Tina (Borderlands)... funniest video game character ever, also young but not the kind of girl that leads to lusting over. Too bad she was the only one in the series though.
There are more I'm sure... maybe we need a thread to brainstorm them all. Looks like we'll get another good example soon:
...though it's hard to say for sure without playing the game.
Even Bioware's Dragon Age had a whole host of less and/or entirely non-sexualized female companions, unless you pursued optional relationships or downloaded nude mods I suppose. (Wynne, Sigrun, Merrill, Aveline Sera, Josephine, ect.)
So yeah, there is definitely a push towards putting females in games who are defined by being interesting and compelling characters, not by breasts and g-strings.
I've also noticed female characters are getting more realistically shaped/proportioned bodies in newer games; it's a good thing considering almost half of gamers these days are female. (Take old vs new Laura Croft, for example) Sure they aren't usually bad looking, but the same is true for virtually all male protagonists as well... games are fantasy and we don't usually wanna be ugly in our fantasy "other life".
Anyway, I remain unconvinced. DOA Beach Volleyball is juvenile garbage. I wouldn't go protest stores or sneak into your house to delete it off your hard drive if it did come to America but lets face the facts: Gaming is growing up and is embracing egalitarianism with gusto. That game goes entirely backwards to the current flow and isn't what most gamers would want to put money on these days... half the gamers (being female) wouldn't buy it on principle and 8/10ths of the men would be too disgusted/embarrassed to have it show up on their gamer tags as well.
Koei Tecmo never had any intention of shipping this game over to the West because not too many people cared about this game to begin with. This announcement is getting the game the attention it was never going to receive.
No it's simply they don't want to be included in the controversy. The DOA Xtreme series sells 2x more in the US than the Japanese version:
A lot of people were curious why they had no plans to bring the game westward, especially when gamers comparing the sales stats realized that the last game in the Xtreme series – from nearly a decade ago – sold more than twice as much in America as it did in Japan, according to the rough estimates by VGChartz.
SO lame. This country is turning into one those parents of a friend you had as kid who totally sucked the fun out of EVERYTHING. Well, good luck with that The Coddled States of America.
This is one of the few things I AGREE WITH!!!!!!!
No one should play that garbage...... Why is everything about sex and killing ppl now?????
IM GLAD THEY WONT RELEASE IT HERE!!!! (But dont worry,it will be imported)
I personally think they're trying to create demand over here by starting controversy over a game people in the US normally wouldn't buy. The whole thing screams "Dude, you really need a girlfriend" for anyone over 12 years old.
Sorry for the delay, but I've been completing the Witcher 3 since it was the only character you mentioned I had no previous experience with.
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Originally Posted by Chango
You make it sound hard.
How about:
Ciri (Witcher 3)...
Ellie (The Last of Us)...
Faith (Mirror's edge)...
Konoko (Oni)...
Tiny Tina (Borderlands)...
Of the 5, I'll give you Ellie, but...
Ciri, hell no, PDA's with Geralt, and the Electra complex that exists when Geralt, Ciri, Triss/Yen are all in the same scene, get outta here, she's all over Geralt like white on rice, but where's the same touchy feely with Yen or Triss. That's decidedly abnormal. All of the female characters in The Witcher series are passengers except Philippa Eilhart (who even mentions the entire dysfunctional relationship that exists between Geralt, Ciri, Yen and Triss).
Spoiler
We hear about how big and bad they are, but they don't act it. Yen won't get her shoes wet (ever hear of levitation? And I'm sure Quen will keep the goop off your clothes just as effectively as monster claws and swords), Triss at least accompanies you, but doesn't really make anything easier. I mean come on, Yen is always something like "we need to find this thing quickly, Geralt, go, on your horse, the thousand leagues to Velen from Kaer Morhen to pick up a the sock of ever cleanliness and bring it back, while I sit here and do nothing. But hurry, because it's quicker than using a teleport for this trivial task". I like the Witcher too, but the characterization in it isn't the best, and they fail to employ good characterization to enhance the mechanics. Why would a sorceress of the nature of Witcher milieu sorceresses need Geralt for anything? He's just a Witcher. Even Ciri for all she's in the main Geralt with boobs (in gameplay) is really big and bad, and then falls down when facing Imlerith, needing Geralt to pick up the slack (I suspect to draw out the final battle), and then immediately after she's about to get nabbed by some other Red Riders and she's bailed out by Crach/Hjalmar coming in on a flaming longship, because she didn't have the foresight to consider if you're teleporting it might be sensible to be somewhere outside of the battlezone, she can always teleport back when she gets her wind back.
Faith is a non-character, could be any gender, preference, race, species even. You could make Faith a dog and the game would operate the same (more or less). There's nothing about Faith that makes her a strong female character.
Konoko, I don't know I see where you're coming from, but I also see it's 15 years ago. Personally I'd have chosen Cortana in preference, definitely female, there's a tension between her and the chief, but it's not driving her to do what she does (it may be driving the chief, but that's not the point of argument).
Tiny Tina is one of the best quirky little sister tropes ever created, but it's still the quirky little sister trope. "Running, running, running, I'm running over here, run, run, run, run run".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango
Even Bioware's Dragon Age had a whole host of less and/or entirely non-sexualized female companions, unless you pursued optional relationships or downloaded nude mods I suppose. (Wynne, Sigrun, Merrill, Aveline Sera, Josephine, ect.)
Yes they did, but that's not the point of contention (and I've given snaps to BW for their equality), it's that they're so close then fall off the path. Take Flemeth, DA:O she's the old woman who lives in a shoe homespun with a crooked fringe, DAII/DA:I she's the evil sorceress complete with thigh high boots, tight bodice, cleavage and hair sculpting that George Lucas would be proud of. It's also not about whether or not the character is sexualized or not, it's about whether it's appropriate sexualization for that character.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango
So yeah, there is definitely a push towards putting females in games who are defined by being interesting and compelling characters, not by breasts and g-strings.
Except the move is to remove breasts and g-strings, but not put interesting and compelling females in games in general. Miranda Lawson for all she had boobs, a skin tight outfit and probably a cheese wire G-string was an interesting and compelling character, and there was even justification for why she had the boobs and looks in her backstory. If she had less of the boobs and more regular clothing she'd still be interesting, however many game developers are removing the boobs and exotic clothing, but still making the characters the same dull and uninteresting types. That's not equality.
Take Samantha Traynor in ME3 she's an excellent character, a strong character and pretty normal looking, and she develops as the game progresses too (and finds her inner marine).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango
I've also noticed female characters are getting more realistically shaped/proportioned bodies in newer games; it's a good thing considering almost half of gamers these days are female. (Take old vs new Laura Croft, for example) Sure they aren't usually bad looking, but the same is true for virtually all male protagonists as well... games are fantasy and we don't usually wanna be ugly in our fantasy "other life".
Well the characters in games are an analog for the player, sure, but that's not the only characters in videogames.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango
Anyway, I remain unconvinced. DOA Beach Volleyball is juvenile garbage. I wouldn't go protest stores or sneak into your house to delete it off your hard drive if it did come to America but lets face the facts: Gaming is growing up and is embracing egalitarianism with gusto. That game goes entirely backwards to the current flow and isn't what most gamers would want to put money on these days... half the gamers (being female) wouldn't buy it on principle and 8/10ths of the men would be too disgusted/embarrassed to have it show up on their gamer tags as well.
I actually think that gaming thinks it's embracing egalitarianism with gusto, but that it's really not. It's perfectly OK to have female characters who dress provocatively, but they need to be more than how they dress, just removing the provocative clothing for something more pedestrian isn't embracing egalitarianism, it would be like having a game that only has black people as slaves, then receiving complaints of it's portrayal of black people, only to re-skin the slaves as white people, that's not fixing the problem, it's avoiding it. It's perfectly OK to have female characters who have elements of tropes, but not the whole character being a trope. Gaming doesn't just need to become more egalitarian, it also needs to grow up. That means it needs to explore aspects that you may find distasteful, and that's fine because you can choose to not experience those aspects, just don't deny them to other people.
Here's the issue, until we find out where the envelope of acceptable is (which is why gaming needs to explore), and even push it a bit further, we're always going to have M rated games that have romantic scenes with the women wearing more clothing than they do in game, or with carefully positioned body parts and camera angles and it's so self conscious that it draws more attention to it because of that self consciousness, like Mass Effect becoming to one protest group a game about alien sex. People, in general, don't see games as interactive entertainment, but something that's really for kids and teenagers. Until people, in general, see games as interactive entertainment, we'll suffer the same tropes, the same issues, and the same extremes we see in games currently. We have M rated games because of language, violence, alcohol and drug use, nudity, but PG rated or younger character development, which makes the M rated aspects seem more than they are. It would be like the Jennifer Connolly character of Requiem For A Dream, appearing in Labyrinth, which would make for a serious cognitive dissonance if it happened in a movie.
One thing that I find funny is the games people don't find embarrassing to have on their profiles/gamertags, Bayonetta is a game I'd be embarrassed to have on my GT, because it's precisely what I hate about videogames, it's purporting to be one thing (strong female lead) that falls into the same traps as games about women often fall into (excessive cleavage and crotch shots) giving female characters an attitude and guns does not make them a strong character. Chainsaw Lollipop is another, and I've got dozens of friends who have Bayonetta and even a few who have Chainsaw Lollipop on their gamer profiles, that said I don't hold it against them, I may make some snarky comments at time about their personal choice of games, but they can probably make the same comments about mine.
Personally I was never really interested in this series, I do like sexuality in my video games though. I like for the women to be attractive in games, just like I like them to be attractive in movies and tv shows. I know society likes to crucify men who like and show interest in attractive women, but I say oh well. Give the players and the people what they want. This is a volleyball game I think? This news is great marketing ploy for guys who hate the anti male feminism we see in American media, but its not a game I would import. If they kept the nudity aspect to the fighting games then yea, id check it out, but volleyball? Not interested.
As if we're missing anything. What a stupid, insulting and degrading otaku fan-service POS of a game.
...If you really wanna play naughty virtual barbie dolls there is no shortage of choices, but you REALLY should use the time trying to talk to real girls instead.
then there is this anti male take that rears its ugly head Some guys dont want to go through the trouble of as you say talking to real girls. I never get this thought process when it comes to entertainment for men. The whole " stop entertaining yourself and go bother real women " take. Its the dumbest thing people say when it comes to this topic.
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