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When I type "Haymarket" into Google references to Boston come back. Seems Haymarket's historical significance does not resonate nationally.
I think this discussion - & many growth vs no-growth discussions - comes down to how you define "value". Often something is valuable based on a recognition of its potential to bring about some gain (gain in money, gain in historical understanding, etc.). The more the potential for gain the more value assigned to the item.
Why is the Haymarket land of great value in its undeveloped state when many Virginians & most nationally do not assign any potential for it to provide gain to more than just a small number of people? Should the greater good (eceonomic benefits) be sacrificed for such questionable gains?
I have yet to be provided an answer to this question: Explain to me how undeveloped property of questionable value will allow current & future generations to earn a living and enhance their quality of life. (Also, development does not always = out-of-control growth).
If it is not desirable or "great" to be rated as a top tourist destination then please inform me of a nationally or internationally recognized list the current undeveloped Haymarket property is rated highly on and how that rating has enhanced opportunities for VA residents (even acceptable to say that it allows 1st-hand view of history).
Who cares? Virginians do not care if their state appears on a "a nationally or internationally recognized list". In Virginia, the holy trinity is God, Thomas Jefferson, and Robert E. Lee. Something as tacky as Disney does not fit into that. Virginia is one of the most historically significant states in the Union. Virginians value that more than tourists. The posts you have received so far should tell you that the vast majority of people in the area do not agree with your position that undeveloped land is wasted land. Seriously, go out to the Manassas battlefield one day, lay on the grass and imagine the field covered with the corpses of soldiers who were willing to die out of loyalty to their state. Take a look down the hill at Rt. 29 and imagine George Washington's carriage passing by on his way to Warrenton. Go out there on a breezy spring day and watch parents flying kites with their kids or on a snowy winter day and watch the kids sledding down the hill. You can still do that all over the area because Virginians cared enough to preserve it.
I was born in Fairfax and raised in Manassas. I currently live in Florida so I know both sides of this coin. Believe me, Virginia is the shinier side of the coin. I recently visited Manassas for the first time after about 6 years. I could not believe how the city had changed for the worse. It practically made me physically sick. The only thing that gave me any comfort was taking my kids out to the same, unchanged battlefield I grew up playing on.
Paving over every blade of grass in VA is not going to help the state. There is no shortage of opportunities for people in VA even without destroying the historical countryside. If you think there is a shortage of opportunities there, you need to get out of the state more. The metro DC area is virtually recession proof and has had constant job growth for 2 decades. Virginia has one of the lowest unemployment rates in the nation and some of the highest income levels. They don't need the jobs. As for revenue, the state has plenty, they just need to apply it more efficiently. I paid more taxes in VA than anywhere else I've lived. I lived in VA when Disney was lobbying for the park and I don't remember meeting a single person who supported it. I also remember that Disney wanted VA taxpayers to cough up millions of dollars to pay for and maintain Disney's park's infrastructure.
I currently live in Florida which is the number one tourist destination in the world. Paving over the state and throwing up tourist traps every 5 feet has not helped this state at all. Disney has about 4 or 5 parks here, in addition to Universal Studios, Sea World, Bush Gardens, and a multitude of smaller tourists spots. However, the state is currently in a recession and has a 2 billion dollar operating deficit. Orlando is a cesspool. Residents here HATE the tourists, hate The Mouse, and they long for the orange groves and piney scrub that were paved over with theme parks, souvenir stands, and out of control housing development. They reminisce about the days when the gorgeous beaches were not barricaded by walls of giant condo towers. Unemployment is growing and incomes are some of the lowest in the country when contrasted with the cost of living. Things are getting to be so bad down here that more people are moving out of Florida than in. Almost every school district in the state has declining enrollment. The districts are closing schools due to the declining enrollment and state budget cuts. How have all those theme parks and supposed "economic developments" helped this state?
Monster developers like Disney and Walmart have a tendency to do more harm than good in communities and there is a backlash against them all over the country.
You are certainly entitled to your opinions but I think you will be hard pressed to get many in Virginia to agree with you about developing the countryside. Especially those who remember what the area looked like 25 years ago before sprawling development paved over the area and there were actually fewer than 7,000 people per square mile.
MY answers to your questions:
YES...who doesn't need additional revenue? VDOT could use the revenue (the state's claim...not mine). Colleges could use the revenue (then possibly they'd halt or reduce tuition hikes). People trying to afford housing in this state could use the revenue (industry would help lower localities' tax rates).
NO...See answer to 1st question. Maybe some of those tourists would bleed over to increase visitation & revenue @ the Civil War themed tourists sites.
YES/NO/DEBATABLE...I don't view growth as an enemy. Growth & development provide opportunities for people to live & support themselves & their families. Growth does not always equal uncontrolled/out-of-control growth. That's a misleading argument of people opposed to growth.
If it is not desirable or "great" to be rated as a top tourist destination then please inform me of a nationally or internationally recognized list the current undeveloped Haymarket property is rated highly on and how that rating has enhanced opportunities for VA residents (even acceptable to say that it allows 1st-hand view of history).
It's obvious to me that you are all about the almighty dollar and the economics of the situation. I mean, "How can it NOT be desireable to be a top rated tourist destination???" is about all I need to hear to see we are on two entirely different wavelengths. Again, my time in Orlando has sold me on the idea that living near Disney sucks on multiple fronts.
The historical significance of Haymarket itself isn't really the issue it seems, but more it's effect on the Manassas Battlefield Park which was close by and from my understanding, would have been in view of the Disney theme park...
As it stands I think the people of Haymarket are probably a little happier being a bedroom community to the D.C. Metro area than they would have being smack dab in the middle of a traffic nightmare of "A top rated tourist destination".... Again, Disney brings plenty of fleas with it to the area. They do not understand the meaning of 'limited development'.... With Disney comes a LOT of hotels, cheesy strip malls with souvenier shacks, waterslides and other amusements etc... that would have transformed the area into an area that, yeah, for the state itself might have padded the coffers a little bit or even quite a bit, but don't go pretending like the people of Haymarket and the surrounding area were somehow stupid for not wanting it..... Not sure how you can blame them.
Now admittedly I don't know much about legoland and what that really was. If it's an amusement park then the same objections for the same reasons stand.
I have yet to be provided an answer to this question: Explain to me how undeveloped property of questionable value will allow current & future generations to earn a living and enhance their quality of life. (Also, development does not always = out-of-control growth).
"How does undeveloped property enhance their quality of life.." Well I can't answer that question FOR you. You either get it or you don't.
I need to change something I said earlier though with regards to Disney.... In Orlando I always felt that Disney itself was relatively tasteful in how it went about it's development. It's the touristy crap that inevitably springs up around Disney that is a hideous blight on the landscape.
Either way, with Disney if you can find one example of where a park of theirs didn't equal out of control growth I'd like to see it.....
In fact your list of top tourist definitions with Disney's parks ALL being near the top pretty much undermine your point.... With that type of tourism uncontrolled development is an assured result.
Deckardc:
These responses are not attempts to be spiteful:
1 - There are FACTS & there are OPINIONS. A number of your assertions were not factual.
2 - FACT: No ONE PERSON can speak for ALL Virginians. Things just aren't that simple.
Unless you've queried a majority of Virginians on subjective matters then you are only expressing your OPINION (& possibly those of your friends, family, associates).
3 - FACT: The vast majority of Virginians are not posting on this thread (so I wouldn't try to come to definitive conclusions regarding the entire state's opinions).
4 - HOLY TRINITY?????? I will just steer completely clear of this because it is not relevant to the topic.
5 - FACT: Any discussions of investments such as Disney's proposed theme park are not just evaluations of local impact. Proposals of that magnitude have statewide, regional, national significance. Arguably, international significance.
6 - Thanks for the invite to the battlefield but (w/ all due respect)...that's not my cup of tea.
7 - FACT: (Per U.S. Dept of Labor - Bureau of Labor Statistics; See Local Area Unemployment Statistics Home Page)
Orlando-Kissimmee, FL Metropolitan Statistical Area, not seasonally adjusted unemployment rate for Sept 2007 was 4%.
Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, DC-VA-MD-WV Metropolitan Statistical Area, not seasonally adjusted unemployment rate for Sept 2007 was 3%.
Less but not significantly less.
MY OPINION: I think the unemployed 3% residents of VA/NoVA or those seeking better opportunities may disagree with you when you say "They don't need the jobs".
States With Lowest Unemployment (Sept 2007): Idaho (2.3%), Hawaii (2.6%), Utah (2.7%), Montana (2.9%), VA (2.9%)
States With Highest Unemployment (Sept 2007): Michigan (7.5%), Mississippi (6.4%), Alaska (6.3%), Kentucky (6.1%)
Florida Unemployment (Sept 2007): 4% (closer to the low side than to the high side)
8 - FACT: States' economic fortunes vary for many reasons (to assign all blame or praise in Fla to Disney just isn't logical). As with investments, diversification helps weather downturns.
9 - MY OPINION: The fact that you didn't know 1 person who supported Disney is only a reflection of your group of friends/associates. Personally, I try to associate w/ people w/ different onions & outlooks. (Part of why I'm at this site)
10 - FACT: A large # of business developments seek state incentives. Not unique to VA or Disney.
11 - FACT: No ONE PERSON can speak for ALL Floridians. See #2 above.
12 - FACT: Virginia is also facing a budget deficit of $641 million. An Orlando Sentinel article I read noted on Aug 27, 2007 that, "A report Monday by state economists shows Florida lawmakers will face a S2.5 billion budget deficit next year if they don't eliminate the current S1.1 billion shortfall facing them...The state's housing slump is the main cause of the cash crunch."
13 - FACT: U.S. Census data does not show a population decrease for the state of Florida.
Per U.S. Census population data (see United States by States; and Puerto Rico - GCT-T1-R. Population Estimates (geographies ranked by estimate))
Florida's population as of July 1, 2005 was 17,768,191. It's estimated population as of July 1, 2006 was 18,089,888. (+321,697)
Virginia's population as of July 1, 2005 was 7,564,327. It's estimated population as of July 1, 2006 was 7,642,884. (+78,557)
"How does undeveloped property enhance their quality of life.." Well I can't answer that question FOR you. You either get it or you don't.
Nice try VAFury but the question was, "Explain to me how undeveloped property of questionable value will allow current & future generations to earn a living and enhance their quality of life."
I threw you the "quality of life" part as an easy, slow pitch. The real part to be answered relates to earning a living.
No offense taken...I'm not "all about the almighty dollar and the economics". If I were I would have taken advantage of much higher salary opportunities & better career options in other areas of VA or other states.
Also, I believe we'd have to find agreement on a definition of "out-of-control" growth. For me, I see nothing wrong with additional establishments near a main attraction. Growth, for me, is "out-of-control" when the growth results in inadequate services, schools, infrastructure improvements, etc. to support the additional traffic, people, homes, etc. generated by the growth. Many times, however, the roots of these problems can be traced to poor government planning at the local level & poor state planning.
7 - FACT: (Per U.S. Dept of Labor - Bureau of Labor Statistics; See Local Area Unemployment Statistics Home Page)
Orlando-Kissimmee, FL Metropolitan Statistical Area, not seasonally adjusted unemployment rate for Sept 2007 was 4%.
Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, DC-VA-MD-WV Metropolitan Statistical Area, not seasonally adjusted unemployment rate for Sept 2007 was 3%.
Less but not significantly less.
MY OPINION: I think the unemployed 3% residents of VA/NoVA or those seeking better opportunities may disagree with you when you say "They don't need the jobs".
It is said that a 2% unemployment rate is essentially "full employment" as those that are not working are likely to be retired, students, homemakers and the like. So going with my theory and your stats, there is perhaps 1% of the metro that may or may not be trying to put an honest effort into finding work. Also to be fair, I'm sure that some of the 97% of us that are employed are working part-time, but unfortunately that's not separated out from the statistics.
But getting back to topic... I've only been in NOVA a little over two years so I'm far from an expert. But I have figured out enough to know that this area doesn't need any more growth, even though the steady influx of jobs mentioned earlier pretty much assures that the trend will continue. I'd also bet that some of the people who live in Haymarket would rather live in Fairfax County or even the District if not for the extremely high housing costs due to the number of people streaming in for the plentiful jobs. Of course, there's no guarantee that one will get the job that they want... or that it will always be convenient to get to it... but the jobs seem to be there for the taking, at least in NOVA.
Tone509:
See point 5.
5 - Any discussions of investments such as Disney's proposed theme park are not just evaluations of local impact. Proposals of that magnitude have statewide, regional, national significance. Arguably, international significance.
I tend to believe that some development opportunties are once-in-a-lifetime opportunities with mamouth potential to benefit areas well beyond the immediate area of development.
This was not another car dealership, office park, mall, etc. Disney and Legoland were exceptionally unique opportunities...not run-of-the-mill developments...with exceptional potential.
... I'm with you, we love spending time at the Battlefield. I have only skimmed this discussion (glaucoma, sorry). I guess I would say that we need to encourage Americans to value experiences that aren't tacky commercialism. Why can't we say - gee, come to Manassas and imagine (you know, imagine) these Civil War battles. Spend time in the pristine outdoors. Etc.
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... but the jobs seem to be there for the taking, at least in NOVA.
deckardc
