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Tone509:
See point 5.
5 - Any discussions of investments such as Disney's proposed theme park are not just evaluations of local impact. Proposals of that magnitude have statewide, regional, national significance. Arguably, international significance.
I tend to believe that some development opportunties are once-in-a-lifetime opportunities with mamouth potential to benefit areas well beyond the immediate area of development.
This was not another car dealership, office park, mall, etc. Disney and Legoland were exceptionally unique opportunities...not run-of-the-mill developments...with exceptional potential.
I see your point but I respectfully disagree.
Had Disney aspired to put the theme park in, say, Roanoke or Danville, I would more likely empathize with you. As it is, I still maintain my belief that Northern Virginia doesn't need that type of growth unless you totally raze over Annandale or Great Falls (representing both ends of NOVA's economic spectrum) and plop the theme park on top of that.
Had Disney aspired to put the theme park in, say, Roanoke or Danville, I would more likely empathize with you. As it is, I still maintain my belief that Northern Virginia doesn't need that type of growth unless you totally raze over Annandale or Great Falls (representing both ends of NOVA's economic spectrum) and plop the theme park on top of that.
And actually from what I read there were a couple areas in the Shenandoah Valley, one near the Roanoke area and an area near Bluefield West Virginia that tried to convince Disney to build in those locations but Disney declined..... Disney wanted to build their historically themed themepark near an area with some historical significance...... Well, those who value historical places didn't see that as a positive it would appear.
Nice try VAFury but the question was, "Explain to me how undeveloped property of questionable value will allow current & future generations to earn a living and enhance their quality of life."
I threw you the "quality of life" part as an easy, slow pitch. The real part to be answered relates to earning a living.
Well as the 3% unemployment rate shows, this doesn't appear to be a huge problem regarding "earning a living". They seem to be managing. Sure Disney creates some high-tech good-paying jobs, but all and all they are typically low-paying service jobs. That's Disney. That's what they do....
Quote:
Originally Posted by CNI
Also, I believe we'd have to find agreement on a definition of "out-of-control" growth. For me, I see nothing wrong with additional establishments near a main attraction. Growth, for me, is "out-of-control" when the growth results in inadequate services, schools, infrastructure improvements, etc. to support the additional traffic, people, homes, etc. generated by the growth. Many times, however, the roots of these problems can be traced to poor government planning at the local level & poor state planning.
You driven through Kissimmee, St Cloud, South Orlando, International Drive area???
That's what I meant earlier by taking a trip down to Myrtle Beach if you want to get a good look at what happens because it looks about the same there...
6 - Thanks for the invite to the battlefield but (w/ all due respect)...that's not my cup of tea.
This really speaks to the issue at hand and why it was shot down and why you don't understand the reasons.... Your comment in the other thread about making Richmond more about the Civil War in general and taking the focus off it being the Confederate Capital (IMO) showed a similar lack of understanding of the value of Virginia's history.
Now don't get me wrong. Development CAN occur tastefully around historical areas. Busch Gardens, for instance is near Jamestown, Yorktown and Colonial Williamsburg and yet doesn't encroach upon any of those places.... The plans I heard for Disney America DID encroach upon the Manassas Battlefield....
Had Disney aspired to put the theme park in, say, Roanoke or Danville, I would more likely empathize with you. As it is, I still maintain my belief that Northern Virginia doesn't need that type of growth unless you totally raze over Annandale or Great Falls (representing both ends of NOVA's economic spectrum) and plop the theme park on top of that.
VAFury - And actually from what I read there were a couple areas in the Shenandoah Valley, one near the Roanoke area and an area near Bluefield West Virginia that tried to convince Disney to build in those locations but Disney declined..... Disney wanted to build their historically themed themepark near an area with some historical significance...... Well, those who value historical places didn't see that as a positive it would appear.
From a business standpoint it would not have been sound/viable to locate the park in places such as Roanoke, Danville, Shenandoah Valley, etc. Tourism related attractions on the level of Disney's proposal require proximity to population.
I think any unbiased business analysis would support this conclusion.
Also just because unemployment levels are low does not mean that every employed person is happy w/ their current employment & could not benefit from additional opportunities for better wages, benefits, hours, etc.
To assume that just because unemployment levels are low no additional employment options are needed is definitely debatable (though u seem to state this as an irrefutable fact).
Last edited by CNI; 11-22-2007 at 05:30 AM..
Reason: clarity
This really speaks to the issue at hand and why it was shot down and why you don't understand the reasons.... Your comment in the other thread about making Richmond more about the Civil War in general and taking the focus off it being the Confederate Capital (IMO) showed a similar lack of understanding of the value of Virginia's history.
Now don't get me wrong. Development CAN occur tastefully around historical areas. Busch Gardens, for instance is near Jamestown, Yorktown and Colonial Williamsburg and yet doesn't encroach upon any of those places.... The plans I heard for Disney America DID encroach upon the Manassas Battlefield....
Please feel free to post your replies to my comments in the Richmond section (the thread has kind of died-out).
This is not about me - personally. You can bet that there are many others who feel the same as I.
Again, I still don't feel like I have received an answer to how future generations of Virginians will earn a living for themselves & their families by thwarting viable development opportunities. Lying around on the undeveloped ground envisioning the past will not bring Virginians wages. Many people know that this kind of obsessive backwards gazing is not beneficial & that is why attendance at these sites is low.
Example: I have very little appreciation for Colonial Williamsburg. Never have been & never plan to go. I do not personally recommend it to any out-of-town guests. But, it is a viable tourist attraction (that is, it has significant numbers of visitors, provides employment, etc.).
Plus what that area also does is provide Busch Gardens/Water Country USA as alternatives (as with investments...diversification).
In this way people such as myself as well people such as yourself can both find something to meet our needs.
I tend to agree with the post that was removed...some appear to be opposed to change. But in life CHANGE IS CONSTANT.
Research – to dispel some previous inaccuracies in an earlier posting (attempts made to omit blatantly biased articles).
Facts:
1) Many Of Disney America Foes/Opponents NOT Virginians
a. (N.Y. Times, June 1994) “…dispute between advocates and foes of a theme park that the Walt Disney Company is planning to build near important Civil War battlegrounds has spilled out of Virginia and into Congress, turning what began as a local spat into a national debate”
b. (N.Y. Times, June 1994) “Largely at the urging of environmentalists and historians who want to protect the region from urban sprawl, a bipartisan group of 16 House members this week introduced a resolution opposing the par…In addition, a Senate subcommittee has been persuaded to hold a hearing…”
c. (N.Y. Times, June 1994) “With so many of Virginia's political leaders supporting the Disney plan, which envisions hotels, shops, two golf courses and 2,281 residential units, opponents see Federal involvement as their best and perhaps only chance to force Disney to build elsewhere.”
d. (N.Y. Times, June 1994) “In announcing the House resolution, Representative Michael A. Andrews, a Texas Democrat who led a fight six years ago against development of a shopping center near the Manassas National Battlefield Park, called the Disney project "far more than a local issue"…”
e. (COSMOS, 1997) “If theme park opponents could somehow generate national criticism of the project, he [William Backer] told his colleagues, Disney executives might take a second look.”
2) Majority Of Virginians Were Advocates/Supporters/In Favor Of Disney America
a. (N.Y. Times, June 1994) “In fact, many Virginians are enthusiastic, among them Gov. George Allen, Senator John W. Warner and seven of the eight members of the Prince William Board of Supervisors. Like them, thousands of county residents see the 3,006-acre theme park as a boon to development, employment and the local tax base. Mr. Allen was the driving force behind a $163 million bond issue for the Disney project; most of the proceeds will pay for improving roads in the area.”
b. (COSMOS, 1997) “…local government officials, developers and many Prince William County residents looked at the coming of the entertainment colossus as Prince William County's salvation."
c. (Citizen Action and Policy Process: The Case of Disney’s America and Prince William County, Virginia, April 2001) “Within the state legislature, support and opposition for the project was bipartisan.”
d. (Citizen Action and Policy Process: The Case of Disney’s America and Prince William County, Virginia, April 2001) “Many local property owners opposed the development, while others looked forwarded to the possibility of new jobs. Prince William and other local Chambers of Commerce eagerly anticipated ancillary business growth and tourism. Some members of the business community, such as bed and breakfast, small hotel, and restaurant owners, opposed, believing that disturbing the rural character of the area would hurt existing tourism.”
e. (Citizen Action and Policy Process: The Case of Disney’s America and Prince William County, Virginia, April 2001) “Disney withdrew its plans in September 1994, despite strong state support and approval of the project by the local planning board the week earlier.”
f. (Citizen Action and Policy Process: The Case of Disney’s America and Prince William County, Virginia, April 2001) “Following Disney’s September 1994 announcement of its withdrawal, the flag in front of the Haymarket town hall flew at half-mast.”
g. (Disney's America: Whose Patrimony, Whose Profits, Whose Past?, Marcia G. Synnott) “The hopes of Haymarket’s 483 people had soared in November 1993, when The Walt Disney Company had chosen it for the project, after two years of careful and secretive consideration of thirty states. They had welcomed Disney’s America for the estimated 3,000 direct and 16,000 indirect jobs that it would bring to Haymarket and Prince William County.”
h. (Time, June 1994) “[Frank] Rich, who bitterly opposes the Disney park, admits that "the issues of money, urban sprawl and environmental disruption that attend the park are between the Virginia voters and their consciences." (Their consciences appear clear: the Virginia legislature has overwhelmingly approved the idea.)”
i. (Chronology of the Walt Disney Company, 1994) “A series of public opinion polls show that 75% of Virginians support the proposed Disney's America theme park.”
3) Disney’s Development Proposal Was Never Solely Only About A Theme Park
a. (N.Y. Times, Sept 1994) “…the park, Disney's America, as the centerpiece of a 3,000 acre project with more than 2,100 residential units, a hotel, schools, offices and stores.”
b. (Bay Journal, March 1994) In addition to the 125-acre theme park, Disney plans a 144-room hotel, a 27-hole golf course, 2,500 homes, and office.
c. (COSMOS, 1997) “…the company proposed to invest more than $650 million to build a 400-acre history theme park, as many as 6,000 housing units, 1,300 hotel rooms, 2 million square feet of commercial space, a water park, a campground, and golf courses.”
d. (Citizen Action and Policy Process: The Case of Disney’s America and Prince William County, Virginia, April 2001) “…there would be a 27-hole golf course, hotels, homes, office buildings, and retail shops.”
Opinion:
4) To expect Virginia/Prince William County to negotiate with Disney in exactly the same way as Florida/Orlando did (and thus, the end-result to be exactly the same) is not logical.
a. (Citizen Action and Policy Process: The Case of Disney’s America and Prince William County, Virginia, April 2001) “In response to environmentalists’ concerns, Disney called attention to the environmental compliance record of its operations in California, a state in which has some of the most stringent air quality standards in the nation.”
The Disney's America theme park plan for Haymarket, VA was withdrawn Sept 1994.
A decision was made to build Legoland in California instead of VA around a similar time as when Disney withdrew its theme park plans.
In retrospect, did VA benefit or loose out as a result of these two planned investments not materializing?
They lost BIGTIME. The supervisors were all in the pockets of the home/community developers (some still are) and look what happened... Bigtime traffic and overcrowding. One of the biggest blunders in recent memory.
No responses?
When I type "Haymarket" into Google references to Boston come back. Seems Haymarket's historical significance does not resonate nationally.
I think this discussion - & many growth vs no-growth discussions - comes down to how you define "value". Often something is valuable based on a recognition of its potential to bring about some gain (gain in money, gain in historical understanding, etc.). The more the potential for gain the more value assigned to the item.
Why is the Haymarket land of great value in its undeveloped state when many Virginians & most nationally do not assign any potential for it to provide gain to more than just a small number of people? Should the greater good (eceonomic benefits) be sacrificed for such questionable gains?
I have yet to be provided an answer to this question: Explain to me how undeveloped property of questionable value will allow current & future generations to earn a living and enhance their quality of life. (Also, development does not always = out-of-control growth).
Please feel free to post your replies to my comments in the Richmond section (the thread has kind of died-out).
This is not about me - personally. You can bet that there are many others who feel the same as I.
Again, I still don't feel like I have received an answer to how future generations of Virginians will earn a living for themselves & their families by thwarting viable development opportunities. Lying around on the undeveloped ground envisioning the past will not bring Virginians wages. Many people know that this kind of obsessive backwards gazing is not beneficial & that is why attendance at these sites is low.
Example: I have very little appreciation for Colonial Williamsburg. Never have been & never plan to go. I do not personally recommend it to any out-of-town guests. But, it is a viable tourist attraction (that is, it has significant numbers of visitors, provides employment, etc.).
Plus what that area also does is provide Busch Gardens/Water Country USA as alternatives (as with investments...diversification).
In this way people such as myself as well people such as yourself can both find something to meet our needs.
I tend to agree with the post that was removed...some appear to be opposed to change. But in life CHANGE IS CONSTANT.
Right on again. PWC put all their marbles into housing and look where they are at now. They were talking about cutting police/teacher jobs for this fiscal year. They cut other senior programs because of the housing tax crunch. The police association and teacher association had to fight tooth and nail to keep jobs. The best applicants to these positions (public safety, schools etc) go to Fairfax because of the HUGE pay difference. I was in public safety for PWC for seven years and got out, the pay and the way PWC treats it's gov't employees just can't compete with surrounding jurisdictions.
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