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Washington, DC suburbs in Maryland Calvert County, Charles County, Montgomery County, and Prince George's County
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Old 12-20-2011, 02:46 PM
 
Location: Washington D.C.
13,727 posts, read 15,760,072 times
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There seems to be a lot of confused people here when it comes to urban economics for our region. Our economy in Washington D.C. is based off of D.C., Maryland's D.C. suburbs, and Northern Virginia. That is the reason the Metropolitan Council of Governments is working so hard to plan regionally. Our economic survival as a region stems from knowing that jobs are for the regional economy which is the D.C. metro area not for individual states. In Urban Economics 101, a regional economy is based off of agglomerations of firms that share the same niche or technology. Our regional strength is based on how well our entire region does. Montgomery County and Prince George's County are not the reason Maryland has problems, Maryland gets most of their tax base from those two counties. It's the rest of the state that feeds off of the D.C. region that causes the state budget woes.

I will give you an example:

Montgomery County and Prince Georges residents benefit more if jobs are located in Arlington and Fairfax than if jobs are located in Towson Maryland. Yes we want jobs in our counties but if they don't go to our counties, we need them to at least stay in our region. Residents can commute to jobs on THEIR DC METRO SYSTEM or drive around THEIR D.C. 495 BELTWAY. Jobs in the D.C. area be it in D.C., Moco, PG, Arlington, or Fairfax etc. causes our region to benefit from more jobs and less unemployment. That in turn props our housing market up in the D.C. region. We don't benefit from jobs in Baltimore or the Eastern Shore. That money goes to the state, but our local economy is much more important to a region than the state economy. An example of the disconnect here is, Houses in Howard County are less than the D.C. suburbs. Why? Because Howard County is apart of Baltimore. Jobs in Baltimore don't benefit the D.C. market. They benefit the state but not the D.C. region. Yes, a few people can commute to Baltimore for jobs but our unemployment rate doesn't include Baltimore. It does include Northern Virginia though. Makes you think huh?

Another example, if Washington D.C., Montgomery County, Prince George's County, Arlington County, Alexandria City, Fairfax County, Charles County, Loudon County, Frederick County, and Prince William County could be their own state, that state would be an absolute JUGGERNAUT! The money that state would have at their disposal would be insane compared to expenses. That is the point people need to realize when it comes to this region. The DMV is ONE region. Our counties benefit from each other. Northern Virginia is more connected with the Maryland suburbs of D.C. than they are with the rest of Virginia. The same thing goes for the Maryland suburbs of D.C. They are more connected with Northern Virginia than Baltimore or the Eastern Shore.

Last edited by MDAllstar; 12-20-2011 at 02:56 PM..
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Old 12-20-2011, 03:24 PM
 
Location: It's in the name!
7,083 posts, read 9,571,027 times
Reputation: 3780
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDAllstar View Post
There seems to be a lot of confused people here when it comes to urban economics for our region. Our economy in Washington D.C. is based off of D.C., Maryland's D.C. suburbs, and Northern Virginia. That is the reason the Metropolitan Council of Governments is working so hard to plan regionally. Our economic survival as a region stems from knowing that jobs are for the regional economy which is the D.C. metro area not for individual states. In Urban Economics 101, a regional economy is based off of agglomerations of firms that share the same niche or technology. Our regional strength is based on how well our entire region does. Montgomery County and Prince George's County are not the reason Maryland has problems, Maryland gets most of their tax base from those two counties. It's the rest of the state that feeds off of the D.C. region that causes the state budget woes.

I will give you an example:

Montgomery County and Prince Georges residents benefit more if jobs are located in Arlington and Fairfax than if jobs are located in Towson Maryland. Yes we want jobs in our counties but if they don't go to our counties, we need them to at least stay in our region. Residents can commute to jobs on THEIR DC METRO SYSTEM or drive around THEIR D.C. 495 BELTWAY. Jobs in the D.C. area be it in D.C., Moco, PG, Arlington, or Fairfax etc. causes our region to benefit from more jobs and less unemployment. That in turn props our housing market up in the D.C. region. We don't benefit from jobs in Baltimore or the Eastern Shore. That money goes to the state, but our local economy is much more important to a region than the state economy. An example of the disconnect here is, Houses in Howard County are less than the D.C. suburbs. Why? Because Howard County is apart of Baltimore. Jobs in Baltimore don't benefit the D.C. market. They benefit the state but not the D.C. region. Yes, a few people can commute to Baltimore for jobs but our unemployment rate doesn't include Baltimore. It does include Northern Virginia though. Makes you think huh?

Another example, if Washington D.C., Montgomery County, Prince George's County, Arlington County, Alexandria City, Fairfax County, Charles County, Loudon County, Frederick County, and Prince William County could be their own state, that state would be an absolute JUGGERNAUT! The money that state would have at their disposal would be insane compared to expenses. That is the point people need to realize when it comes to this region. The DMV is ONE region. Our counties benefit from each other. Northern Virginia is more connected with the Maryland suburbs of D.C. than they are with the rest of Virginia. The same thing goes for the Maryland suburbs of D.C. They are more connected with Northern Virginia than Baltimore or the Eastern Shore.

I can agree with this. That's an interesting way to look at it. I never thought of it that way. Thanks!
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Old 12-20-2011, 04:09 PM
 
Location: Washington D.C.
13,727 posts, read 15,760,072 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adelphi_sky View Post
I can agree with this. That's an interesting way to look at it. I never thought of it that way. Thanks!
Yeah man, people have no clue how urban economic connections work. For instance, if you happen to get cost of living increase on your job, it reflects Northern Virginia, D.C. proper, and the Maryland D.C. suburb cost of living prices. It has nothing to do with Baltimore or the Eastern Shore cost of living prices. Salaries are also lower in Baltimore and the Eastern Shore because it's a different region than working in the D.C. region. Maryland's D.C. suburbs are connected with D.C. and Northern Virginia, not the state of Maryland. Northern Virginia is connected with D.C. proper and the Maryland D.C. suburbs, not the state of Virginia.
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Old 12-20-2011, 04:11 PM
 
1,106 posts, read 2,883,823 times
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If the whole DC area was a state...holy hell!
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Old 12-20-2011, 04:28 PM
 
Location: Washington D.C.
13,727 posts, read 15,760,072 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rsh56 View Post
If the whole DC area was a state...holy hell!
Yep! The Maryland D.C. suburbs are the economic engine for the state of Maryland and the Northern Virginia suburbs are the economic engine for the state of Virginia. The D.C. region is the richest region in the nation by a mile and the economic connection we share with each other including Northern Virginia, the Maryland D.C. suburbs, and Washington D.C. proper is much closer than any other connections we share with other parts of the state of Maryland or the state of Virginia. People need to stop fighting with each other over things that strengthen us as a region. It's 2011 and people need to wake up. Every statistic and calculation is about Metropolitan Area. Every ranking etc. is about Metropolitan Area. We Are One Region! There is no such thing as unemployment in one county. Unemployment is about a metro area. Agglomeration allows people to travel and refers to the economic health of a region by Metropolitan Statistical Areas. County and State lines don't matter in the grand scheme of things.
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Old 12-21-2011, 08:42 AM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,868 posts, read 12,562,134 times
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1. Im not sure if you compared the net state revenues vs expenditures for PG versus the wealthier counties in greater Baltimore, that you would find PG a better contributor the state coffers. Saying MoCo and PG are the engines of Maryland, really does mix two rather unlike places. That would be even MORE true if we didnt privilege county boundaries (as you stated, they are arbitrary) - but compared say Hunt Valley alone, to the most troubled parts of PG

2. Im not sure that the regions are as seperable as you imply. Granted not too many people commute from Baltimore City to DC - but IIUC quite a few do from Howard county, say, to DC. And even more from Howard to the employment centers in MoCo. Which means plenty of potential knock on effects - if employment in baltimore city grows, increasing home values in Howard, then PG housing becomes more competitive with Howard for folks looking for cheaper housing commutable to MoCo.

3. many of the economic linkages within greater DC are themselves quite relative. If a firm decides to locate in DC, or Alexandria, that leaves PG quite competitive for commuters. In Tysons? Not so much. In Loudoun County -much less than that even. OTOH for MoCo, a firm locating in Tysons rather than DC isnt quite as bad as it is for PG (though still not great).

in sum, while your indeed correct that county and state boundaries are arbitrary relative to metro regions, I would suggest that to a considerable extent so are MSA boundaries - especially when you are dealing with two MSAs so close and so interconnected, and when one of them (metro DC) is so disagglomerated, not only distance, but by congestion and transport issues.
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Old 12-21-2011, 10:53 AM
 
Location: Washington D.C.
13,727 posts, read 15,760,072 times
Reputation: 4081
Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
1. Im not sure if you compared the net state revenues vs expenditures for PG versus the wealthier counties in greater Baltimore, that you would find PG a better contributor the state coffers. Saying MoCo and PG are the engines of Maryland, really does mix two rather unlike places. That would be even MORE true if we didnt privilege county boundaries (as you stated, they are arbitrary) - but compared say Hunt Valley alone, to the most troubled parts of PG

2. Im not sure that the regions are as seperable as you imply. Granted not too many people commute from Baltimore City to DC - but IIUC quite a few do from Howard county, say, to DC. And even more from Howard to the employment centers in MoCo. Which means plenty of potential knock on effects - if employment in baltimore city grows, increasing home values in Howard, then PG housing becomes more competitive with Howard for folks looking for cheaper housing commutable to MoCo.

3. many of the economic linkages within greater DC are themselves quite relative. If a firm decides to locate in DC, or Alexandria, that leaves PG quite competitive for commuters. In Tysons? Not so much. In Loudoun County -much less than that even. OTOH for MoCo, a firm locating in Tysons rather than DC isnt quite as bad as it is for PG (though still not great).

in sum, while your indeed correct that county and state boundaries are arbitrary relative to metro regions, I would suggest that to a considerable extent so are MSA boundaries - especially when you are dealing with two MSAs so close and so interconnected, and when one of them (metro DC) is so disagglomerated, not only distance, but by congestion and transport issues.
Transportation issues are another issue. D.C. has the worst traffic in the nation mainly because of the beltway. I actually think it's a necessary evil to keep the urban grid connected in D.C. The only way I would approve of a highway through D.C. is if it was tunneled the whole way. That's not going to happen so we are stuck with what we have. The purple line is going to help a little. The Beltway Line which will be Metro around the whole metro area in 2030-2040 is really going to be the answer!

Baltimore County is definitely apart of the economic engine for Maryland. I was mainly speaking about this boards ignorance towards urban economic connections and their ignorance towards economic agglomeration. Our transportation infrastructure is only for our region which does not include Baltimore. Our Metro expansions are for our region. Our economic growth is for our region. D.C. and Baltimore make a CSA which is not really connected like an MSA but they do have slight connections. But, at the end of the day, the economic health of our region in every facet has to do with D.C. proper, Northern Virginia, and the Maryland D.C. suburbs.

The other parts of Virginia south of Northern Virginia and Maryland counties likes Howard etc. commute into the D.C. region so they can benefit from OUR jobs in the D.C. region. There is a disconnect on this board with economic regional connectivity. We are better off having people in Northern Virginia have those jobs instead of Howard county. It boosts our MSA income totals and lowers our MSA unemployment which in turn strengthens our housing market. That causes investors to want to invest and build in the D.C. market and it brings new jobs here. That brings new innovative and educated young people to boost our workforce. Having our firms close together helps to lower costs because of the principals in an agglomeration. It provides a lower utility on the utility curve.
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Old 12-21-2011, 11:09 AM
 
Location: Cumberland
7,017 posts, read 11,310,963 times
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The fallacy of promoting regionalism is in revenue collection. Sure a new company locating just over the Potomac can attract workers in Maryland, but Maryland doesn't collect any of the property tax on the land the company relocates on.

It is very clear that "regionalism" can create areas of great wealth and prosperity in one corner of the metro, and great poverty and decay in another. Baltimore is a better example of this than D.C. Much of the city core continues to rot and is crime ridden, some of the suburbs are extremely wealthy. It isn't much consolation to a resident of West Baltimore or SW DC that their "region" is doing great, and all they have to do is pop on a metro train and ride to a 6 figure job. Their neighborhood public school is failing, their roads are crumbling, the police can't keep their street safe. They can live in a jurisdiction of poverty in a region of wealth

So long as each individual jurisdiction is responsible for their own tax collection, school systems, road repair, internal administration, etc., there is natural competition between jurisdictions for resources. This would be true even all parts of region were different counties in the same state, it is even more true when a region is divided among a federal district and 3 different states.

Maybe it is the difference between regional economics, and regional politics. On an economic level, a region is "in it together." From a political point of view, each jurisdiction is competing with each other for the benefits that development and increased tax revenue bring.
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Old 12-21-2011, 11:21 AM
 
Location: Maryland
18,630 posts, read 19,418,524 times
Reputation: 6462
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDAllstar View Post
There seems to be a lot of confused people here when it comes to urban economics for our region. Our economy in Washington D.C. is based off of D.C., Maryland's D.C. suburbs, and Northern Virginia. That is the reason the Metropolitan Council of Governments is working so hard to plan regionally. Our economic survival as a region stems from knowing that jobs are for the regional economy which is the D.C. metro area not for individual states. In Urban Economics 101, a regional economy is based off of agglomerations of firms that share the same niche or technology. Our regional strength is based on how well our entire region does. Montgomery County and Prince George's County are not the reason Maryland has problems, Maryland gets most of their tax base from those two counties. It's the rest of the state that feeds off of the D.C. region that causes the state budget woes.

I will give you an example:

Montgomery County and Prince Georges residents benefit more if jobs are located in Arlington and Fairfax than if jobs are located in Towson Maryland. Yes we want jobs in our counties but if they don't go to our counties, we need them to at least stay in our region. Residents can commute to jobs on THEIR DC METRO SYSTEM or drive around THEIR D.C. 495 BELTWAY. Jobs in the D.C. area be it in D.C., Moco, PG, Arlington, or Fairfax etc. causes our region to benefit from more jobs and less unemployment. That in turn props our housing market up in the D.C. region. We don't benefit from jobs in Baltimore or the Eastern Shore. That money goes to the state, but our local economy is much more important to a region than the state economy. An example of the disconnect here is, Houses in Howard County are less than the D.C. suburbs. Why? Because Howard County is apart of Baltimore. Jobs in Baltimore don't benefit the D.C. market. They benefit the state but not the D.C. region. Yes, a few people can commute to Baltimore for jobs but our unemployment rate doesn't include Baltimore. It does include Northern Virginia though. Makes you think huh?

Another example, if Washington D.C., Montgomery County, Prince George's County, Arlington County, Alexandria City, Fairfax County, Charles County, Loudon County, Frederick County, and Prince William County could be their own state, that state would be an absolute JUGGERNAUT! The money that state would have at their disposal would be insane compared to expenses. That is the point people need to realize when it comes to this region. The DMV is ONE region. Our counties benefit from each other. Northern Virginia is more connected with the Maryland suburbs of D.C. than they are with the rest of Virginia. The same thing goes for the Maryland suburbs of D.C. They are more connected with Northern Virginia than Baltimore or the Eastern Shore.
I'm a PG resident and work in Baltimore. I know of at least 3 other people in my office who make the commute from PG to Baltimore. I average about an hour and ten minutes each way by car. About the same time it would take me to get to the Dulles Corridor.
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Old 12-21-2011, 11:26 AM
 
Location: Maryland
18,630 posts, read 19,418,524 times
Reputation: 6462
Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
1. Im not sure if you compared the net state revenues vs expenditures for PG versus the wealthier counties in greater Baltimore, that you would find PG a better contributor the state coffers. Saying MoCo and PG are the engines of Maryland, really does mix two rather unlike places. That would be even MORE true if we didnt privilege county boundaries (as you stated, they are arbitrary) - but compared say Hunt Valley alone, to the most troubled parts of PG

2. Im not sure that the regions are as seperable as you imply. Granted not too many people commute from Baltimore City to DC - but IIUC quite a few do from Howard county, say, to DC. And even more from Howard to the employment centers in MoCo. Which means plenty of potential knock on effects - if employment in baltimore city grows, increasing home values in Howard, then PG housing becomes more competitive with Howard for folks looking for cheaper housing commutable to MoCo.

3. many of the economic linkages within greater DC are themselves quite relative. If a firm decides to locate in DC, or Alexandria, that leaves PG quite competitive for commuters. In Tysons? Not so much. In Loudoun County -much less than that even. OTOH for MoCo, a firm locating in Tysons rather than DC isnt quite as bad as it is for PG (though still not great).

in sum, while your indeed correct that county and state boundaries are arbitrary relative to metro regions, I would suggest that to a considerable extent so are MSA boundaries - especially when you are dealing with two MSAs so close and so interconnected, and when one of them (metro DC) is so disagglomerated, not only distance, but by congestion and transport issues.
PG has like the 10th highest median income in the state so I'm not sure how he arrives at PG being one of the two biggest contributors to the state's coffers. Even if you factor in population I'm not sure he would be correct.

Also Baltimore County is a big contributor if not bigger than PG.
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