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No, I didn't say that. But I think that to believe that studies are "always sufficient accurate [indicators] of if something is true or not" is rather naive. I think one has to work very hard to ensure that a study is unbiased, to ensure that a decision to study a trend or a consistency doesn't start with certain assumptions or preconceived notions. If you poll people as part of a survey or study, you are dealing in part with their anecdotes, no?
Um, more than one day; I see this practically every time I go there. Who's talking about extrapolating that anywhere, especially across the country? LOL! Also, I would think that if I see them with shopping bags in their hands, trying on and paying for shoes, makeup and the like, they are buying something. Now, whether they have the money (or the credit) to do so regularly, I don't know. But I do know that Nordstrom's carries merchandise at a variety of price points. Despite being a high-end store, there are many fairly affordable items there. My point is that, while studies carry some value, they are not the be-all-end-all, and they may not capture the totality of a situation in a particular area.
Your comments about the underwater houses and overspending is a whole nother topic. I am talking about people who have these items, can afford to have these items, and can afford to regularly shop for other high-end items. They do exist in PG, you know. That doesn't mean that they have to go buy them from Nordstrom's every week, or whatever "regular" means. Other people from other counties may decide to patronize a high-end store in PG. For instance, Crofton residents who don't want to drive to Annapolis could, theoretically, take a ride down the road to shop at a Nordstrom's that is located in Bowie. Depending on where you locate it, you can draw people from places other than PG.
I was talking about the decision whether to locate high-end retail to PG, not whether mid- to low-end apparel stores choose to leave. The latter stores were already here, right? So, of course racism didn't play a part in them locating in Bowie. Also, if there is a really good reason for the move, that reason would make "logical" sense, correct? My guess is that stores like Old Navy or Bed, Bath and Beyond were given an offer too good to turn down. Do we know for certain that they were failing at Bowie Town Center? Did racism play a part in their leaving? Or did the City of Bowie not do enough to keep them? Who knows, but it's not part of the point I was trying to make.
And to automatically assume that it is not is more than a little naive and smacks of an "ideology at all costs" argument. Do you know it NOT to be true? Why don't you go find out instead of calling names? That's immature.
Really? They lasted for a good number of years before they moved, even before the economy began its ongoing journey towards recovery. Same for GAP. I have purchased some clothing at Old Navy for myself and my children. Sure, they changed the way they made their jeans, and that became a problem (as jeans often can be for anyone). By the way, I saw a variety of races in that store and at BTC generally. In my opinion, the variety and quality of merchandise became bland and crappy in both stores. Yet, I haven't heard they were unsuccessful in Bowie just because they moved. I do think they made an advantageous business decision to relocate. Again, you don't know all the reasons behind the move.
Last I checked, Potomac Mills is in Prince William County. It includes outlet versions of upscale stores, including Nordstrom Rack. The Rack is not Nordstrom's, but it carries merchandise sent over from Nordstrom's. With Potomac Mills, why would Prince William need a Nordstrom's? Also, consider whether Prince William (or the other counties you named) WANTS upscale commercial development? In the northern Virginia area (and the southern Maryland counties you named) if the powers that be don't want it, the people don't push for it, and other similar stores are a short commute away, then you won't get the upscale stores. Those examples you gave have too many variables to be a true comparison.
It was rumored GAP couldnt afford the lease at the store. If they couldnt afford the lease at BTC, then wouldnt that indicate that they were NOT selling enough merchandise?
Im not sure what the issue was with the PG Plaza location, but I cringe everytime I see that $10 Gussini store in both their locations. It just screams "Hood Clothing with Ratchet Swag"
I remember shopping at at the American Eagle at BTC and was asked to check my bags. By a security officer, I have been to other AE stores and have A. Never seen an security officer, and B. Never been asked to check a bag. This is not Iverson or Forestville mall, its Bowie TC. Then when I became a Probation Officer, I see that theft and crime happens at BTC on a daily basis. to the point, that some of the stores cant make the budget revenue for the month due to already slow sales and then theft.
Bed Bath and Beyond will become an LA Fitness, which has success elsewhere and will draw crowds to the Town Center. Look at Laurel LA Fitness, people have already been asking the staff at La Fitness and other merchants at the adjacent Shopping center when will the mall be completed.
It was rumored GAP couldnt afford the lease at the store. If they couldnt afford the lease at BTC, then wouldnt that indicate that they were NOT selling enough merchandise?
Im not sure what the issue was with the PG Plaza location, but I cringe everytime I see that $10 Gussini store in both their locations. It just screams "Hood Clothing with Ratchet Swag"
I remember shopping at at the American Eagle at BTC and was asked to check my bags. By a security officer, I have been to other AE stores and have A. Never seen an security officer, and B. Never been asked to check a bag. This is not Iverson or Forestville mall, its Bowie TC. Then when I became a Probation Officer, I see that theft and crime happens at BTC on a daily basis. to the point, that some of the stores cant make the budget revenue for the month due to already slow sales and then theft.
Bed Bath and Beyond will become an LA Fitness, which has success elsewhere and will draw crowds to the Town Center. Look at Laurel LA Fitness, people have already been asking the staff at La Fitness and other merchants at the adjacent Shopping center when will the mall be completed.
The Old Navy at PG Plaza still exists. Probably because it is close to UMD. I WISH I had some money to invest. I'd put all the teen stores right along RT. 1. 35,000 students and no Abercrombie, American Eagle, etc? And students at UMD aren't exactly poor either. It just pisses me off that the city of College Park has been so decrepit for so long. HUGE untapped market staring them in their faces for decades. And the best they can do is Rugged Warehouse.
The Old Navy at PG Plaza still exists. Probably because it is close to UMD. I WISH I had some money to invest. I'd put all the teen stores right along RT. 1. 35,000 students and no Abercrombie, American Eagle, etc? And students at UMD aren't exactly poor either. It just pisses me off that the city of College Park has been so decrepit for so long. HUGE untapped market staring them in their faces for decades. And the best they can do is Rugged Warehouse.
Of course not, Financial Aid refund checks come in handy once that bill has been paid. LOL
But I agree, the students there arent poor to begin with, Rugged wearhouse and Greenbelt Plaza are their shopping destinations with PG Plaza and Wheaton a close second.
College Park is a college town, but can really benefit from retail rehab, look at DC. Howard is getting the benefits of Columbia Heights and Petworth. While Catholic will be seeing the rehab with Brookland getting some improvements.
American Eagle sure as hell has a security guard posted at the Fashion Centre at Pentagon City location. I've had to see them on several occasions and feel that uneasy 'I'm watching you" feeling.
And I was also thinking how stupid it is that we have this huge college right in the area (the largest in the Baltimore/Washington region) and yet we don't have the stores they'd eat up. Someone mentioned they wouldn't be opposed to an Apple Store in the county. Put one in College Park. Profits would be through the roof.
And as a side note, a lot of white folk are patronizing PG Plaza, now. A lot of the college students who live across the street in the towers, but surprisingly a lot of families. It's very noticeable so I'm not talking about a sprinkling of white people. I've noticed the food section in Target has been progressively changing, apparently to cater to the changing demographic. I am not complaining.
It was rumored GAP couldnt afford the lease at the store. If they couldnt afford the lease at BTC, then wouldnt that indicate that they were NOT selling enough merchandise?
Im not sure what the issue was with the PG Plaza location, but I cringe everytime I see that $10 Gussini store in both their locations. It just screams "Hood Clothing with Ratchet Swag"
I remember shopping at at the American Eagle at BTC and was asked to check my bags. By a security officer, I have been to other AE stores and have A. Never seen an security officer, and B. Never been asked to check a bag. This is not Iverson or Forestville mall, its Bowie TC. Then when I became a Probation Officer, I see that theft and crime happens at BTC on a daily basis. to the point, that some of the stores cant make the budget revenue for the month due to already slow sales and then theft.
Bed Bath and Beyond will become an LA Fitness, which has success elsewhere and will draw crowds to the Town Center. Look at Laurel LA Fitness, people have already been asking the staff at La Fitness and other merchants at the adjacent Shopping center when will the mall be completed.
I was referring to Old Navy with regard to claims of financial troubles. I had figured that GAP had financial issues and chose to close that store, but the store had been located at BTC for several years.
I agree with you about the shoplifting. I have heard that BTC definitely had some issues. I wonder if the problem extended to employee shoplifting in addition to customers? That's what I heard some years back.
I thought Gussini had gone out of business over a decade ago, but it turned up at the Boulevard, and now BTC. I thought it used to be one of the $10 clothing stores.
But wow, checking your bags at AE? I think I would be tempted to walk out. That reminds me of a boutique I visited in DC many years ago. The store obviously had trouble with shoplifting, because when I stopped in front of a mirror, I could tell it was a two-way, and I could see the outline of a store owner making all of these movements -- straining and peering at me, to see if I was going to steal whatever it was I was holding. It was so funny! I stared at her for a minute, put the merchandise back and continued browsing -- on my way to the door. I left and never returned.
American Eagle sure as hell has a security guard posted at the Fashion Centre at Pentagon City location. I've had to see them on several occasions and feel that uneasy 'I'm watching you" feeling.
And I was also thinking how stupid it is that we have this huge college right in the area (the largest in the Baltimore/Washington region) and yet we don't have the stores they'd eat up. Someone mentioned they wouldn't be opposed to an Apple Store in the county. Put one in College Park. Profits would be through the roof.
And as a side note, a lot of white folk are patronizing PG Plaza, now. A lot of the college students who live across the street in the towers, but surprisingly a lot of families. It's very noticeable so I'm not talking about a sprinkling of white people. I've noticed the food section in Target has been progressively changing, apparently to cater to the changing demographic. I am not complaining.
Pentagon City has had theft problems too -- easy access from the Metro stop, I guess. Pentagon Cuity also used to also have problems with youth acting like fools at the old movie theater. I figured that's why the theater closed.
No, I didn't say that. But I think that to believe that studies are "always sufficient accurate [indicators] of if something is true or not" is rather naive. I think one has to work very hard to ensure that a study is unbiased, to ensure that a decision to study a trend or a consistency doesn't start with certain assumptions or preconceived notions. If you poll people as part of a survey or study, you are dealing in part with their anecdotes, no?
But these are the things that businesses use to decide if they are going to move to an area or not. It probably isn't 100% accurate, but it's something that businesses need to do in order to know if an area they are not familiar with, have the right demographics for their business.
"We hold focus groups to understand the wants and needs of our customers," Douglas said. Those can vary from people who live nearby and shop weekly to those who drive 15 miles to shop once a month.
Does that mean that those people in the focus group will represent their shoppers entirely? Doubt it but that's what businesses do. You may have seen black people in that store, but that was during the times you were there. Unless you were making a concerted effort to have a study or you created a survey for people to take, it's hard to say that what you did is equal with what businesses do. Again I'm not saying what you saw isn't true, but I'm sure businesses do studies in areas like that, and they have their own data. If we saw their data or at least understood the rationale, maybe there would be better insight. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Baker was trying to survey businesses about something similar. I think that is important to know without making assumptions about why they aren't coming because perhaps those things can be addressed. If it was indeed race, then that means those businesses are not going to come, they can't be forced to and this conversation is moot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bowian
Um, more than one day; I see this practically every time I go there. Who's talking about extrapolating that anywhere, especially across the country? LOL! Also, I would think that if I see them with shopping bags in their hands, trying on and paying for shoes, makeup and the like, they are buying something. Now, whether they have the money (or the credit) to do so regularly, I don't know. But I do know that Nordstrom's carries merchandise at a variety of price points. Despite being a high-end store, there are many fairly affordable items there. My point is that, while studies carry some value, they are not the be-all-end-all, and they may not capture the totality of a situation in a particular area.
But you observing people while shopping does?
This is the same conversation we had in another thread. You see some black people in a store like Nordstrom, oh there are black people with money. I'm sorry but you are making a huge assumption about the people who shop in that store. It's not to say that they don't have money, but we don't know either way. I'm not trying to paint what you say as wrong, I'm trying to be neutral. I don't think I can look at someone in a store and determine if they have money based on them shopping in that store. I know people that go to Whole Foods just to get specialty items. Would it be fair to say that because they go there, they must make a lot of money?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bowian
Your comments about the underwater houses and overspending is a whole nother topic. I am talking about people who have these items, can afford to have these items, and can afford to regularly shop for other high-end items. They do exist in PG, you know. That doesn't mean that they have to go buy them from Nordstrom's every week, or whatever "regular" means. Other people from other counties may decide to patronize a high-end store in PG. For instance, Crofton residents who don't want to drive to Annapolis could, theoretically, take a ride down the road to shop at a Nordstrom's that is located in Bowie. Depending on where you locate it, you can draw people from places other than PG.
It's not a different topic. It's one representation of wealth. How can you say someone that is $100k underwater has the same spending power as someone that has $100k equity. If people are underwater, they likely don't have wealth. That is a huge difference and that is something that has to be addressed. If we are talking about wealth, again, you can't base it on income alone. Black people in this nation has 20 times less wealth than whites. That is a huge difference! No doubt there are black people that have money, but on average, it is SIGNIFICANTLY LESS than whites, which is unfortunate. I think if the black community spent more time teaching financial literacy then we would have every possible store we could ever want, because people with money who are smart with money, is much powerful than people who have money and don't know how to spend it.
Using your logic with people from other parts of PG willing to drive to go to stores like that, then what is the incentive to move to PG as opposed to neighboring counties? If you know wealthy people from PG are willing to travel to another county, and perhaps it's either cheaper to move to the other county and/or they have less crime, then you have just given a reason why they wouldn't. There is just a sense of entitlement here. PG could undoubtedly have one of these stores, but these businesses choose not to and yet they are successful. If there was an untapped market that they thought was profitable, and they aren't moving here, then it would behoove us to find out why they aren't instead of just making assumptions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bowian
I was talking about the decision whether to locate high-end retail to PG, not whether mid- to low-end apparel stores choose to leave. The latter stores were already here, right? So, of course racism didn't play a part in them locating in Bowie. Also, if there is a really good reason for the move, that reason would make "logical" sense, correct? My guess is that stores like Old Navy or Bed, Bath and Beyond were given an offer too good to turn down. Do we know for certain that they were failing at Bowie Town Center? Did racism play a part in their leaving? Or did the City of Bowie not do enough to keep them? Who knows, but it's not part of the point I was trying to make.
The point of bring that up, is there are other obvious reasons besides race as to why these stores don't stay or don't come. I don't doubt that the Old Navy in Bowie was successful, but if it was that successful, then why move? Obviously there was limited success, right? Perhaps there were other factors, but Old Navy is at least open to coming, so it can't be race as the reason for leaving, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bowian
And to automatically assume that it is not is more than a little naive and smacks of an "ideology at all costs" argument. Do you know it NOT to be true? Why don't you go find out instead of calling names? That's immature.
I'm not calling you a name, I'm saying that to suggest racism is "main factor" without knowing any facts is lazy (the action, not the person) because you are basing this on what? What research have you done to determine that, this was the only reason for them doing this? How do you know that there wasn't other reasons for not coming to PG? If I said they didn't came here, because of crime, I'm sure you would ask for the same type of proof. I'm not even trying to draw any conclusions because there is no information to do so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bowian
Really? They lasted for a good number of years before they moved, even before the economy began its ongoing journey towards recovery. Same for GAP. I have purchased some clothing at Old Navy for myself and my children. Sure, they changed the way they made their jeans, and that became a problem (as jeans often can be for anyone). By the way, I saw a variety of races in that store and at BTC generally. In my opinion, the variety and quality of merchandise became bland and crappy in both stores. Yet, I haven't heard they were unsuccessful in Bowie just because they moved. I do think they made an advantageous business decision to relocate. Again, you don't know all the reasons behind the move.
And then they moved 3 miles down the road to another county. We don't know why, but I'm sure it ultimately affects their bottom line. You are being EXTREMELY defensive. You keep using anecdotes to support your point. Look I get it, black people shop at these places. Never said black people didn't. I just want to get down to the real reason why these business either leave or avoid PG. Could it be race? SURE! I never said it couldn't, but if I were to assume that, what would be the basis for that assumption?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bowian
Last I checked, Potomac Mills is in Prince William County. It includes outlet versions of upscale stores, including Nordstrom Rack. The Rack is not Nordstrom's, but it carries merchandise sent over from Nordstrom's. With Potomac Mills, why would Prince William need a Nordstrom's? Also, consider whether Prince William (or the other counties you named) WANTS upscale commercial development? In the northern Virginia area (and the southern Maryland counties you named) if the powers that be don't want it, the people don't push for it, and other similar stores are a short commute away, then you won't get the upscale stores. Those examples you gave have too many variables to be a true comparison.
And outlet store? Really? If we say that outlet stores are equivalent to getting high-end stores, than that means this conversation has already been resolved because there are high-end outlet stores coming to Tanger Outlet more. I don't know maybe someone else can chime in, but are outlets suitable replacements for these high-end stores? If so, then Tanger Outlet, is the answer right?
Pentagon City has had theft problems too -- easy access from the Metro stop, I guess. Pentagon Cuity also used to also have problems with youth acting like fools at the old movie theater. I figured that's why the theater closed.
I've never been to PG Plaza. I may check it out.
Do so at your own peril. I live minutes away and only go there for the bare minimum, basic stuff. If I want to do anything close to "real" shopping, I have to go to Montgomery County or Northern Virginia.
Do so at your own peril. I live minutes away and only go there for the bare minimum, basic stuff. If I want to do anything close to "real" shopping, I have to go to Montgomery County or Northern Virginia.
There's not much there. The stores are either shoe stores or very urban stores. The only cross-culture stores are Old Navy and Victoria's Secret. Of course you have Sephora in JC Penny. And the dark and still dank Macy's that doesn't carry the clothes a more upscale Macy's carry. Other than that, it's perfect for your African American high school teen.
There's not much there. The stores are either shoe stores or very urban stores. The only cross-culture stores are Old Navy and Victoria's Secret. Of course you have Sephora in JC Penny. And the dark and still dank Macy's that doesn't carry the clothes a more upscale Macy's carry. Other than that, it's perfect for your African American high school teen.
And hence why I don't shop there. I went to that crap Macy's for one of the big holiday sales... the day after Black Friday I think. The Macy's at PG Plaza had absolutely nothing I wanted. I think I found a watch that was nice, but the customer service team was so clueless and unprofessional, I left the watch and went home. I don't think if I won a shopping spree to go to the Macy's at PG Plaza, I could fill up a standard shopping cart... barely even a hand basket. Conversely, I could go bankrupt shopping at the Macy's at Pentagon City (or even Westfield Wheaton). I often have to force myself to leave the Macy's at Pentagon City because I'm like a kid in a candy store. So much stuff I want to buy. I ended up getting a $120 coat at that Macy's when I didn't intend to spend over $30! I often wonder do black people realize the disparaging difference between the different chain department stores, from market to market. I doubt they know an actual "tier" system is in place.
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