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Horrible analogy on the whole daughter/pregnancy thing rolleyes: No one is saying they love fraud. I think more reasonable individuals understand that fraud exist despite one's best efforts to legislate against it. You can pass laws until 2020, voter fraud, though may be reduced, will still occur. Laws are broken every minute. No one is applauding that fact, but it is a part of every day life in society such as ours.
Supposed you have a voter law that everyone thinks is perfect. Who's the stop those who enforce that law from fraud? In other words, everyone from the top down and bottom up has to be on one accord and of one mind to not commit fraud for there to be a remote chance of eliminating fraud. And even then, voters will find a way to commit fraud. Again, look at tax laws. People find loophole after loophole after legislation after legislation. IN addition, I think redistricting is a form of fraud that changes the rules in one party's favor to where the majority in a state may not end up with the candidate of their choice.
The goal is to find a reasonable balance to where you're not making it more difficult than it should be for all people to vote in a fair and balanced way.
How easy or how difficult should voting be though? And this is according to what? What document says I should not have to prove my identity to vote? You say that but then we have the second amendment and it's okay to make getting a gun harder? Isn't that my right too? So why is it okay to make it harder but not apply similar logic to voting? Isn't the purpose of gun laws, to restrict the wrong people from getting access to guns? Again isn't it still a right? So how that logic not apply to voting?
You can take this even further. Gun laws will not stop people from using them to kill (Chicago/Illinois) people or illegally obtaining them, yet we pass these laws! Using your point, can't police officers (the people who enforce the law) also still abuse this right?
How do we deceipher the difference in supporting gun laws but not voter ID laws?
Hmm... it seems no one is willing/able to answer the question posed: how is voter ID going to fix fraud if I can go out and get a good fake ID? Where is the deterrent there?
You guys can get as insulting as you like, I don't care. Y'all hate almost everybody so I'm in good company.
This is how you know a person comes on here with no other intent to push their agenda, argue, and not even bother to read responses.
Clear as day she asked this question before and I gave her this very clear response.
Ask yourself, why does this individual continue to come into these threads to argue but never actually read the responses to her points?
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Originally Posted by pgtvatitans
Both issues have to be addressed.
If you have people who are able to fake ids then the issue is beyond voting. As a state, if you haven't found ways to prevent fraud then you have many other problems that will need to be addressed. But even with that said, there are ways around that include adding bar codes on id and/or allowing poll workers access to an electronic verification system.
Let me ask this again, how many people do you know who don't have Id?
How easy or how difficult should voting be though? And this is according to what? What document says I should not have to prove my identity to vote? You say that but then we have the second amendment and it's okay to make getting a gun harder? Isn't that my right too? So why is it okay to make it harder but not apply similar logic to voting? Isn't the purpose of gun laws, to restrict the wrong people from getting access to guns? Again isn't it still a right? So how that logic not apply to voting?
You can take this even further. Gun laws will not stop people from using them to kill (Chicago/Illinois) people or illegally obtaining them, yet we pass these laws! Using your point, can't police officers (the people who enforce the law) also still abuse this right?
How do we deceipher the difference in supporting gun laws but not voter ID laws?
You missed a very important statement in my post.
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The goal is to find a reasonable balance to where you're not making it more difficult than it should be for all people to vote in a fair and balanced way.
In other words, there are voting laws and there are voting rights. One can't overreach the other as to make the process unbalanced, unreliable, unreasonable, and unfair.
As far as police abusing laws, it happens all the time. I'm not sure what your question was getting at. People break laws, from your neighbor all the way to US presidents. I think we both agree that laws can be broken. I support voter ID laws, but not if it disenfranchises a particular group or if it makes it more difficult for the public to vote.
Say, for example, that you need an ID to vote. Well, there are a growing number of young people who don't drive. Who may not be in a school that issues IDs. They may work at a job that doesn't have IDs. So, where do you go to get an ID? The motor vehicle admin? How much is that ID going to cost? You mean I have to pay for an ID to do something that is a basic right? What about those on public assistance? Do they have to pay? Will they be provided transportation to get to where they need to be? Some people can't travel. Would their proxy be able to get an ID for them? What if they don't have their SSN card or their birth certificate? What if they don't pay taxes? How often would they have to renew their ID? If they lose their cards will they have to pay for a replacement? Will they get turned back at the voting booth? There are a host of issues related to the voter ID discussion.
In other words, there are voting laws and there are voting rights. One can't overreach the other as to make the process unbalanced, unreliable, unreasonable, and unfair.
As far as police abusing laws, it happens all the time. I'm not sure what your question was getting at. People break laws, from your neighbor all the way to US presidents. I think we both agree that laws can be broken. I support voter ID laws, but not if it disenfranchises a particular group or if it makes it more difficult for the public to vote.
Say, for example, that you need an ID to vote. Well, there are a growing number of young people who don't drive. Who may not be in a school that issues IDs. They may work at a job that doesn't have IDs. So, where do you go to get an ID? The motor vehicle admin? How much is that ID going to cost? You mean I have to pay for an ID to do something that is a basic right? What about those on public assistance? Do they have to pay? Will they be provided transportation to get to where they need to be? Some people can't travel. Would their proxy be able to get an ID for them? What if they don't have their SSN card or their birth certificate? What if they don't pay taxes? How often would they have to renew their ID? If they lose their cards will they have to pay for a replacement? Will they get turned back at the voting booth? There are a host of issues related to the voter ID discussion.
Your example makes no sense. If they work, unless it is under the table, they have to have ID to work anywhere in this country legally, which is what an SSN card proves and it also allows one to get a photo ID.
Also, I am supposed to believe that a person can find a way to get to work, but not be able to get to the DMV? If your situation is such that you are that far away from public transportation then exactly how arbitrary is this example? The boondocks doesn't have dense populations so you are talking about a very rare occurence if this ever existed. The closer one is to a population center (a city), the more access to public services they will have, so how likely is it that a person has absolutely no means to get to a DMV or some place to get ID.
And you also have to consider most IDs last 5-8 years. Are you suggesting that there are so many people that are in such a condition that they couldn't even at least get a taxi ride in 5 years???? If we have a large population living like this, then how would they get to the voting precincts to even vote?
The point of my response was to illustrate the flawed logic being used against voter ID laws. I just took every counterpoint you made and applied it to gun laws to show the hypocrisy that many use in this type of conversation.
You unfortunately can't appease everyone. There will be some who will find it a challenge to vote, but does that mean you ignore common sense just to appease the few.
Your example makes no sense. If they work, unless it is under the table, they have to have ID to work anywhere in this country legally, which is what an SSN card proves and it also allows one to get a photo ID.
You can get a job without a photo ID. You just need at least two forms of identification. That can be a SSN card and a birth certificate, or official mail that is addressed to you and sent to your current residence, etc. But my point was not that you need a photo ID to get a job, it was that there are a good number of jobs that don't provide a work photo ID, which I assume someone could use to vote.
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Also, I am supposed to believe that a person can find a way to get to work, but not be able to get to the DMV? If your situation is such that you are that far away from public transportation then exactly how arbitrary is this example? The boondocks doesn't have dense populations so you are talking about a very rare occurence if this ever existed. The closer one is to a population center (a city), the more access to public services they will have, so how likely is it that a person has absolutely no means to get to a DMV or some place to get ID.
Wow dude. Seriously? Not everyone owns a car or works. Some people rely on family members to take them where they need to go. And rural living is not a rare occurrence as you suggest. You can't take the DC area and apply it to every corner of the contiguous 48 and Alaska. I've been to Alaska. You pray not to get stranded on some of those isolated roads. Some people are so remote they have to take bush planes as taxis to go grocery shopping, etc. That's extreme, but there are still plenty of rural areas in this country. You have people in the state of Maryland that may have no way of getting to the DMV on their own. And I'm not suggesting that they never leave their house. The point of that statement was that voter ID laws have to take these situations into account and not make it too difficult or hard for people to vote who may not have access to the means of jumping though hoops to be "allowed" to vote. We all earn that right when we're born in this country.
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And you also have to consider most IDs last 5-8 years. Are you suggesting that there are so many people that are in such a condition that they couldn't even at least get a taxi ride in 5 years???? If we have a large population living like this, then how would they get to the voting precincts to even vote?
It's called Vote By Mail.
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The point of my response was to illustrate the flawed logic being used against voter ID laws. I just took every counterpoint you made and applied it to gun laws to show the hypocrisy that many use in this type of conversation.
Gun laws wouldn't have been my analogy of choice. But it's the one you chose.
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You unfortunately can't appease everyone. There will be some who will find it a challenge to vote, but does that mean you ignore common sense just to appease the few.
That depends on what type of voter ID law becomes legislation. Can it be one that is fair to all individuals? Or one that alienates a certain demographic? Remember, I said balance. There can be a law requiring ID, but with exceptions for those who may find it more difficult to meet the requirements. I'm not sure how the details would play out, but it is certainly possible.
You can get a job without a photo ID. You just need at least two forms of identification. That can be a SSN card and a birth certificate, or official mail that is addressed to you and sent to your current residence, etc. But my point was not that you need a photo ID to get a job, it was that there are a good number of jobs that don't provide a work photo ID, which I assume someone could use to vote.
According to the IRS, all employees a business has must have a SSN (or ITIN for immigrants) if you make money. If you do, likely you and your employees are taxed. If you do not have a SSN, then how does the IRS know you and your employees are paying taxes??????????????
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Originally Posted by adelphi_sky
Wow dude. Seriously? Not everyone owns a car or works. Some people rely on family members to take them where they need to go. And rural living is not a rare occurrence as you suggest. You can't take the DC area and apply it to every corner of the contiguous 48 and Alaska. I've been to Alaska. You pray not to get stranded on some of those isolated roads. Some people are so remote they have to take bush planes as taxis to go grocery shopping, etc. That's extreme, but there are still plenty of rural areas in this country. You have people in the state of Maryland that may have no way of getting to the DMV on their own. And I'm not suggesting that they never leave their house. The point of that statement was that voter ID laws have to take these situations into account and not make it too difficult or hard for people to vote who may not have access to the means of jumping though hoops to be "allowed" to vote. We all earn that right when we're born in this country.
I am sorry is Alaska densely populated? You just said how secluded it is in certain parts which proves my point. If you are living in a situation like that it is extremely unlikely that you do not have the means to get around in 5 years time. And even if you do not how many people are we realistically talking about? Your scenario again is so small, that it is ridiculous to use it. Again your logic applied to gun laws, the majority of gun owners do not go on mass shootings, yet we are passing laws to prevent a small minority from getting these guns. Is that right? You are arguing for a small population, but yet we pass laws that take away rights from the majority and have no issue with it. I am not even trying to suggest that these are your thoughts, but what I am saying is we would be using a different standard of the laws if we used your logic.
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Originally Posted by adelphi_sky
It's called Vote By Mail.
You still need ID to register to vote. Based on your example, at some point he has to get ID to even vote by mail.
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Originally Posted by adelphi_sky
That depends on what type of voter ID law becomes legislation. Can it be one that is fair to all individuals? Or one that alienates a certain demographic? Remember, I said balance. There can be a law requiring ID, but with exceptions for those who may find it more difficult to meet the requirements. I'm not sure how the details would play out, but it is certainly possible.
This isn't deep. Just require ID. That is the law. What ID is acceptable depends on the state.
It's fine to speculate, but laws shouldn't be changed based on pure speculation of the motives and probability of catching someone committing a potential crime that apparently is very very rarely committed and for which you have an extremely small amount of data on. That doesn't make sense to me, especially when you are creating a burden, albeit a very small one, on everyone else voting (this is even taking out the issue of getting an id if you are poor or old or can't drive or don't have a birth certificate or whatever else). There needs to be at least more data and proof that voter fraud is a big problem. I can definitely imagine a situation where someone like my grandmother would not have had an id, and would have had a hard time getting one. In that case we're creating a burden on her voting when she is innocent, and there isn't even a reason we can point to, to place that burden on her or anyone else. Do you see where I'm coming from here?
Rarely committed? And you know this how? I can picture someone with blindfolds on, saying, "I didn't see a thing! It must not be happening then."
Please, burden me! And if at some time in the future I find myself missing any form of ID, if I chosse to take on the burden of getting new ID, just so I can vote, I will figure out how to get it done. If I am so infirm that I can't figure it out then I shouldn't be voting. If someone can take the time to vote they can certainly take the time to prove they are eligible to vote.
I am sorry is Alaska densely populated? You just said how secluded it is in certain parts which proves my point. If you are living in a situation like that it is extremely unlikely that you do not have the means to get around in 5 years time. And even if you do not how many people are we realistically talking about? Your scenario again is so small, that it is ridiculous to use it. Again your logic applied to gun laws, the majority of gun owners do not go on mass shootings, yet we are passing laws to prevent a small minority from getting these guns. Is that right? You are arguing for a small population, but yet we pass laws that take away rights from the majority and have no issue with it. I am not even trying to suggest that these are your thoughts, but what I am saying is we would be using a different standard of the laws if we used your logic.
The population in Alaska that might have a problem registering to vote is likely less than 10% of the number of actual fraudulent votes in the rest of the country.
IN addition, I think redistricting is a form of fraud that changes the rules in one party's favor to where the majority in a state may not end up with the candidate of their choice.
Like erm...Maryland? Republicans have been all but thrown out of Maryland's politics. Fraud?
Like erm...Maryland? Republicans have been all but thrown out of Maryland's politics. Fraud?
You make the call.
Looks like you already made it.
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